Join John Kozicki (Michigan Rock School & RockSchoolProprietor.com) and Mandy York (Music Time of Milford) as they dive into the art of teaching music by exploring the balance between traditional and non-traditional approaches. Discover the pros and cons of each method, and meet the ultimate music instructor avatar, Steve Connolly, who embodies the best of both worlds.
In this episode:
- Defining a “Traditional” Music Instructor Avatar (Mrs. Connely the piano teacher)
- Defining a “Non Traditional” Music Instructor Avatar (Steve the guitar teacher)
- Pros and cons of each approach
- The sweet spot is in the middle of these two opposite approaches.
- What could Mrs. Connely do to move closer to the center?
- What could Steve the guitar teacher do to move closer to the center?
Episode Transcript:
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If it gets too rigid and boring in Mrs.
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Connelly’s lessons, then they’re going to check out. If it gets to the point
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where they feel like, man, when am I, you know, I’m learning these songs,
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which is cool and Steve’s fun to hang out with, but like, I don’t feel like I’m learning music.
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I’ve been doing this for months. Then they’re going to check out.
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Music.
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I think that’s important. That’s what we want to do as teachers,
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right? Help kids reach the potential that they didn’t even know they had.
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Yeah, that’s really cool. But I heard this new song by Billie Eilish. Can I can I learn that?
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And then he’ll say, sure, let’s talk about what the chords are for that song,
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because we don’t have the sheet music.
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Welcome to Rock School Proprietor Podcast. I’m John Kozicki and my co-host.
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Mandy York. Hey, John. Hey, Mandy. How are you?
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I’m good. I’m caffeinated and spring has finally sprung, so things are good. Yeah.
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So I was just saying, I feel like kind of less prepared for this discussion,
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but I’m excited about it because what we’re going to talk about is we’re going
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to talk about like these extremes with what we’re calling the non-traditional
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approach to teaching music lessons and a traditional approach to teaching music lessons.
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And I told a story in an earlier episode about my first experience with piano
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lessons as an eight or nine-year-old.
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And my piano instructor, Mrs.
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Connelly, was very traditional, and I think she would fit in that camp.
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Camp and as a result, I’m probably, I’m more non-traditional when it comes to
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my approach and what we do in my studio.
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But I’m interested to hear how you would assess yourself.
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If we’ve got this spectrum of traditional on one side and non-traditional on
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the other, and we’re going to sort of get into how to describe those,
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where would you place yourself as a.
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I mean, I guess as like a teacher and like where your philosophy is.
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Yeah, I would place myself on the non-traditional side, for sure. Okay.
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Yes. I mean, knowing you personally, I would agree with that.
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But knowing your background, it’s like it’s a little surprising.
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Right, right. Because I had such a traditional background and classical training.
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But in the early childhood classroom, for sure, on the non-traditional child-led teaching side of it.
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Yeah. And I posed the question, and maybe we’ll get into this a little bit more.
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I posed the question, like, can you be traditional with toddlers?
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Can you be traditional with, like, you know, one-year-olds?
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You can try. I don’t know how well it will work.
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Okay. Well, let’s sum what I did in my notes.
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I put together what I’m calling music instructor avatars, right?
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So I’ve got a traditional music instructor avatar, and I’m just going to call her Mrs.
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Conley because in my mind, that early experience that I had, Mrs.
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Conley is my avatar for the traditional music instructor.
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So I have four bullet points. So Mrs. Conley teaches from method books only.
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She has a heavy focus on reading music.
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Sheep music is used when learning songs and students do not get a choice in
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the music that they play.
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So that again, that’s an extreme, right? That would be like traditional,
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right? The extreme traditional on one side.
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Now, non-traditional music instructor avatar, I named him Steve, the guitar instructor.
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I don’t know where the name came from. I think it’s perfect.
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I have had non-traditional guitar instructors teach for me at times.
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None of them were named Steve, so this is fictional. So a non-traditional music
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instructor avatar teaches songs or just parts of songs.
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There’s minimal, if any, focus on reading fundamentals or how music works.
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Steve never writes anything out, never. And there’s no real clear path for progress
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or goal setting with this,
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non-traditional guitar instructor steve so
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do you see where like we’ve got opposite ends of the spectrum here
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yes totally okay who would
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you rather just who would you rather take instruct lessons from well
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steve for sure i see i probably at this
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point in my life i’d want to go with mrs connelly well
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as a kid if you’re asking me as a kid i want
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to hang out with steve yes yeah but no
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i i have had mrs connelly’s in
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my life and where i’m at right now sure like yeah
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i’d want to work with mrs connelly but as a kid right steve sounds as a kid
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well and okay and we talked about previously that the sweet spot is neither
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the sweet spot is in the middle right the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle
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if you picture that as a spectrum you’ve got
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traditional on one side, you’ve got non-traditional on the other side.
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These two, Mrs. Connelly and Steve, are extremes.
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Somewhere in the middle is where everyone wants to be.
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Yes. That’s the point of this. Yeah. And that is the entire point of this discussion.
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And so what we’re going to do is we’re going to talk about pros and cons of
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each one of those instructors.
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And then maybe some ways that we could
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suggest if you know
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if you’ve got an instructor who kind of you can
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see tends to one side or the other and maybe you
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want to bring them more towards the center we’re going to offer up some suggestions on
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how to maybe move towards the center because that again that’s where we believe
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the sweet spot is yeah okay do you want to do let’s do pros and cons of either
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steve or Or Mrs. Connelly first? Who do you want to start with?
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I want to talk about Mrs. Connelly. Okay. Yes.
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All right. Well, let’s… Cons or pros first? What do you think? Let’s do the cons.
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Okay. Let’s talk about what the problems we see with these approaches are.
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Okay. So, Mrs. Connelly. She only teaches from method books.
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What’s the problem there?
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What do you think? With only method books? Yeah. Well, I mean… That feels like…
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You’re not getting any of the, any music, right? That the kids want to learn.
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It’s, yes. Yeah, you’re not actually doing and, like, learning how to,
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like, use that information.
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You’re learning how to recite.
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I mean, I know recitals are popular with the traditional.
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But, yeah, it’s rote memory.
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There’s, you know, it’s not, you’re not necessarily, you’re not applying that knowledge.
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Heavy focus on reading i you know
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this is a tough one i don’t i don’t know
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if i can find a necessarily a con with this
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one other than i can
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see depending on the student and the age of
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the student that it could get like tedious and boring
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yep yeah it’s a
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matter of how it’s done right how it’s
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taught yeah how much
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at one time right sheet music is
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used when learning songs again i
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don’t know if that’s a that’s a negative but
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if you pair that with the next one which is students don’t get to choose their
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music i think that’s where that’s where that like that disconnect comes in right
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or actually okay let’s go back to that sorry i feel I feel like I’m blasting
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off the negatives and these are all like,
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they’re in my psyche. We’ll get to the pros. Let’s go. It’s all right. Okay.
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Okay. Sidetrack. Quick story. I have a friend, Tara, and she had,
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when she was younger, I had her son for me once.
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And she was not a music instructor, but she had had, I think,
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seven or eight years of traditional classic music lessons, piano lessons.
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She could play any piece of sheet music that you put in front of her, anything.
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And I had her come and teach at my rock school, you know, and because I needed a sub.
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And after the day, she said, oh my gosh, that was so fun. I wish I could play pop music.
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And my mind was blown. I was like, what are you talking about? out. I’ve seen you play.
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How can you not play a song with four chords in it? How can you not play pop music?
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She needed the sheet music. She needed the sheet music for everything because
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she could read like nobody’s business,
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but there was a complete disconnect between playing four chords to put a pop
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song together and playing whatever classical.
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What is the most challenging piano piece to play? What do you think?
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Oh, gosh. I don’t know. I wouldn’t be able to name the hardest,
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but I would imagine Rachmaninoff. Okay, so anything, anything classical,
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that’s out of my wheelhouse.
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But okay, other cons that you see from Mrs. Connelly’s approach?
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I mean, like you said, not allowing the kids to choose, not allowing students to choose music.
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I think that’s, that’s a negative, not giving students any autonomy or choice
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in the process is, yeah, that’s not going to be pleasurable.
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It’s so personal. It’s such a personal thing.
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We all have our own motivations and our own sources of passion for pursuing
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music and learning music that when choice is removed,
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then yeah, it just sort of takes the wind out of your sails.
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Okay, so what are the pros? What do you see the pros with the traditional approach
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and Mrs. Connelly’s piano lessons?
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All right. Well, I think that method books are useful for what they were designed
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for, for teaching us the methods, right?
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And I think reading music is important. I do, personally.
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Being able to pick up a piece of music and play it like your friend,
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you know, the pianist, is a great skill to have. It is.
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Well it’s it’s funny though she your friend
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the pianist not being able to improvise you know
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that’s something that’s come up with with me too i i had
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a duet with a harpist very well trained amazing player and we worked together
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for a couple years we did a few gigs and recitals and i remember her saying
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you know gosh don’t you wish you just took more like improv classes,
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more like jazz stuff in college, because it is just a totally different thing.
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You know, I mean, we’re, we’re reading music and of, you know,
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very satisfying, you know, to work with her and to be playing this kind of music that we are playing.
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But, but yeah, we didn’t have that skill of improvisation.
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But I think being able to read music is huge. I think that this traditional teacher.
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This piece of traditional teaching is important in that the teacher is exposing
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students to new genres and new music.
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If we allow students to only choose their own music, you know, personally,
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something that I think about and talk about with colleagues is,
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you know, what will happen to classical music if the kid, you know,
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if we don’t show the kids, you know?
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So that’s what Mrs. Connelly is doing.
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She’s introducing Bach and Beethoven and Mozart and Schubert.
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So personally, I think that is a huge pro of what Mrs. Connelly is doing.
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That’s a great point. And I hadn’t thought of that.
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And I’ll be honest, I see these, all of these are pros, right?
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Teaching from method books. Again, like you said, they’re designed to teach the fundamentals.
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Heavy focus on reading. Again, that’s a great foundation.
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Sheet music is used to learn songs. Again, all of that stuff is really great in the front end.
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It’s hard to just, you know, blanket statement, that’s bad.
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But it’s what happens from there.
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Again, and my like, I’m so in the middle on a lot of this stuff,
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you know, so when I, when I think back about my own experience with Mrs.
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Conley, it’s, it’s really like, man, what would have happened?
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What would have happened if I did see a path, if she showed me a path from what
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she was teaching me to, like,
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you know, I don’t know, let’s go from Bach to Billy Joel to, like, Journey.
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And then I just wonder what would have happened.
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So I do think these are all pros.
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They’re all positives. It’s just my hang up is always, what next? Yeah.
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Yeah. Sure. Because how long is that sustainable? How long is that going to
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hold the interest? Right.
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And for the I mean, for the right student, maybe a long time.
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Absolutely. Yes. I mean, yeah, we’ve got plenty of examples of students that
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hang on to this traditional method and very successful and it works.
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But I would say if we’re talking numbers and we’re talking about someone who
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wants sustainability in their in their lesson roster and in their studio,
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well, that student who is going to who all that stuff resonates with is going
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to be a very small percentage of the population.
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So and you can still do that for the right student. But.
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You got to also kind of take into consideration everyone else, I think.
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And I’m kind of jumping ahead because I think this is stuff we’ll talk about after.
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But OK, so let’s talk. Let’s shift. Should we switch to Steve,
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the guitar instructor? Yeah.
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The non-traditional music instructor avatar.
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OK, I got a lot of I know it’s ironic, but I have a lot of problems with Steve.
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But I do, even though I’m kind of more non-traditional myself,
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I’ve got a lot of problems with Steve.
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Ashley, why don’t you lead with this one? So and then I’ll get into it.
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So teach us songs or parts of songs.
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Right. Well, I mean, talk about rote. You know, he’s just, you know, they’re playing by ear.
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Probably they’re just, you know, muscle memory.
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I mean, it’s playing. It’s playing. It’s having fun teaching songs, but it’s a song, right?
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How do you, we need to know how to translate that to develop the skills of the kids, right?
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I mean, minimal, if any, focus on reading fundamentals or how music works.
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I want, speaking from the, as a parent of a music student, I want,
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you know, if I’m putting my kid in these lessons, the goal is to have them learning these things.
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Never writing anything out. No clear path for progress or goal setting.
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Just reading your bullet points here.
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We want, we want goals. Where are we going with this?
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What I’m about to say measurable outcomes. Like I want to see, right.
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I want to see, you know, the progress. Yeah.
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And I would, I mean, you, you mentioned, you said it, you said,
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we’ll talk about rote when teaching songs and parts of songs.
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I think these are all the same problems sure as
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the traditional instructor just packaged differently
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right just maybe as a reaction to
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like one side of the pendulum this is the other side of the oh yeah like teaching
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songs or parts of songs i’ve had i’ve had students come to to my school and
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the parents say something like yeah he he knows like he seems to know some parts
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of songs but he’s never played a full song,
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and he plays everything by memory, right?
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So those are all in my mind, like, oh, okay.
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The instructor is just showing him this little section and then leaving them
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to try and figure out the rest or he’s not bothering to write anything down.
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So the kid’s learning from memory.
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Memory is only gonna be a portion of whatever the instructor actually teaches
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the kid in a lesson, right? It’s whatever they’re gonna retain.
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And yeah, it’s just this weird cycle where like, yes, maybe the kid’s having
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fun because it’s Steve. Steve’s a fun guy.
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But again, there’s there’s no I think there’s there’s no sustainability there.
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That’s what I was going to say, too. Yeah, long term. Because even for the child,
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if they’re, because it won’t take too long for the kid to realize,
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like, they’re not playing a whole song.
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You know, they’re not achieving what they had imagined they would when they entered these lessons.
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So, parents and kids alike. Now, the benefit there, though, the benefit there,
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and this is the opposite benefit from the traditional. The benefit there is
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it’s hooking the students in quickly.
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It’s showing them how to do the activity right away.
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And so they can feel successful quickly, as opposed to the traditional is more
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like, well, someday you are going to be able to do this.
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But first, we have to do all these other things, right? So it’s the opposite.
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But if there’s, again, there’s no plan for saying, hey, you’ve learned this
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little riff from this song, or you’ve learned this little part to the song.
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Now, let me start connecting the dots for you. If that never happens,
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well, I mean, that’s just kind of being a lazy instructor.
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Mm-hmm. Right?
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Yeah, I agree. okay so yeah and you know i think because like my approach as
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the owner of a rock school,
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is less traditional i i think that’s why i do feel strongly about these things,
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because yes those are good techniques in the short term but if if the kid is
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only ever learning these pieces of the songs and you’re not connecting those
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dots well then they’re not they’re not They’re not learning how to learn.
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They’re just learning this one thing. And then they’re going to learn this other
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thing. But they’re not learning how to teach themselves.
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They’re not learning how to take the knowledge that they’ve had and make it
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work for them in a practical way.
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So, yeah, I do feel strongly about Steve, the guitar instructor, and his approach. Yes.
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All right. Any other pros that you see with Steve or cons, I guess?
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Well, I mean, I think, like you said, it’s appealing to the child. It gets them hooked.
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It gets them in. They get some kind of, you know, instant gratification with
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the parts of the songs that they’re playing, you know, right away.
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But, not enough.
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So, we need a Steve Connolly.
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That’s what we need. Steve Connolly, I love it. I love it.
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Oh, you’ve just created a third avatar, which is the perfect instructor.
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So, Steve Connolly, this is great.
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I didn’t even anticipate this happening. But what is, how does Steve,
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okay, if Steve Connolly was a piano instructor, what would that look like?
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I have an idea of what it would look like, but in your mind,
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what would Steve Connolly, the piano instructor, look like?
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Well, I think Steve would issue a method book.
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He would get to know his student and find out the student’s interests,
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favorite artists, what kind of music they like, talk to the student about goals,
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where they want to go, what they want to do, and teach in a way that helps the
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child learn the fundamentals.
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Uses music that they are interested in, but also exposes them to new music too. Keeps the lessons fun.
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This is something I tell, I get a lot of questions about from my parents,
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my caregivers. Is my child ready for piano lessons, right?
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And I try to hold them off till at least five or six, and that’s depending on the kid.
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I think that’s a whole other episode that we’re going to have to get into. That totally is, yes.
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Yeah. But what I do say, like the qualification with that is that it needs to be fun.
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Like they have to enjoy it.
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Not they should do it only if they’re able to practice 15 minutes a day or whatnot,
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but if they are enjoying it. So if Steve Connolly is teaching in a way that
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the child enjoys, go for it.
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But then there’s going to come a point where the older child needs to be pushed.
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They need to hang in there.
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They need to get through this piece of music or, you know, this section of the
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method book in order to elevate their skill level.
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But we’re also working on this piece that you love and this is what we’re going
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to do for the show at the end of the term or whatever it is. Yeah. Right?
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Yes. So there’s a give and take and there’s some pushing of the student.
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I think that’s important. That’s what we want to do as teachers,
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right? Help kids reach the potential that they didn’t even know they had but
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make it really fun and implement these other…
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Songs, musical games, whatever it is that the kids love too. Love it.
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In my mind, as you were talking about that, I was thinking like,
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what is in my mind, what does Steve Connelly look like?
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Steve, honestly, Steve Connelly is the piano instructor that I always try and hire.
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I think Steve Connolly is a jazz player and he’s he he used to play in cover bands in college.
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So and I always look for jazz players if I can find them when it comes to teaching
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piano because you had mentioned earlier you said well that improvising skill you know you wish you had
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more of that jazz players there i
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mean they know everything right they understand
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the fundamentals they understand theory
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they are able to improvise that’s
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that’s everything so if that’s like
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if that’s your sweet spot as a player then
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you’re going to be able to impart that onto your students you’re going
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to be able to teach them those fundamentals and then when
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the kid says yeah that’s really cool but i
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heard this new song by billy eilish
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can i can i learn that and then he’ll say
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sure let’s talk about what the chords are for
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that song because we don’t have the sheet music let’s talk
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about what the chords are so that you can you can play the chords along with
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the song and then and then they’re getting that practical knowledge of how to
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how to recognize Recognize what they’ve done with the fundamentals, reading music,
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identifying chords on the keyboard,
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and then putting them into practice in a less structured,
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read the sheet music type of way. Mm-hmm.
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So, yeah, no, I like that. I like your Steve Connelly.
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I had a good friend in college, you know, in the in the music program,
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and he had a jazz emphasis pianist, awesome player.
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And we had a lot of friends play at our wedding.
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And I had, I had this guy play for our wedding, and I gave him a bunch of classical music that I wanted.
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You know, I gave him some Debussy and Schubert to play during the ceremony.
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And he had not played a lot of it and i
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remember at maybe the rehearsal or something he was like oh i’m so glad i did
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this this was really cool to to learn these pieces that i had not learned before
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you know and the jazz program was small at the school we went to we it was mostly
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you know more classic classical emphasis but i thought that was you know that
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was interesting you know he He,
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I mean, he did not play the WC like one of the, you know, classic piano performer,
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performance majors did.
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But it was beautiful and great. And then he played, you know,
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an awesome jazz and just background music during the cocktail hour that was super fun.
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So, yes, Steve Connelly, best of both worlds, kind of. So cool.
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But then I feel like I do need to briefly mention and kind of defend like.
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If the piano student wants to take their skill to the next level,
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they may have to graduate from Steve Connelly. Do you agree?
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Okay. Oh, I like this. What’s the next level?
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Well, if they’re like, you know what, I think I want to participate in these
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piano competitions, and I think I am interested in going to school for music, you know, maybe,
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then maybe they have to graduate from Steve Connolly to someone with more of
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a classical background. I agree.
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But what you’re talking about, though, now you’re talking about specialization after years of… I am.
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Of like study and years
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of enjoyment and years of being in
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music right and figuring out in theory
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i mean i don’t know like what when when in your mind you’re you’re thinking
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about this in that timeline of the student but so i don’t disagree but that’s
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a that’s a specialization right it’s like so someone someone becomes a doctor
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or a pediatrician let’s say someone becomes a pediatrician Right.
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They don’t like they don’t graduate from high school and say like,
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OK, now to start studying pediatrician.
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I don’t even. You’re right. You’re right. Yes.
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You know, they’re like, OK, well, now I have to go to college and then I have
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to get into med school and then I have to get a residency and specialize in pediatrics.
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So does it make sense for in the music world to start in that more traditional sense right away?
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I mean, again, for the right student, maybe so.
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Yeah. I just…
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Well, I think it should be the students. Right. With the right mentors.
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I’m so… I’m thinking through this right now.
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I’m just… I’ve got to change over to voice because I can’t speak to piano.
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Okay. Lessons as well.
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But I started getting serious about singing in high school.
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And, I mean, I did make a voice instructor change halfway through high school to someone…
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That was a college instructor and a little less emphasis on the musical theater, I think.
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Which in the voice world, I
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think that’s one of the things that kind of catches the singers early on.
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Is like, musical theater, like that’s a little more fun.
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But I was, you know, kind of participating in these competitions and was really
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getting into, you know, foreign language music and classical music.
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So I did make a teacher change.
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I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. And I agree wholeheartedly.
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I’ll add that even in the past, let’s see, I’ve had, I’ve had students,
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personal students, and then other students at my music school who I didn’t work with.
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I’ve had students go to Berklee College of Music. I’ve had two students,
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one of them is currently there, go to USC Thornton School of Music.
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Music these are serious serious music
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schools right and so you you
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are correct you know they start in in my
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program which is less traditional i’m not going to say non-traditional because
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i i strongly feel like you know we’re we kind of are in the center but lean
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toward that non-traditional oh yeah but these are kids who again after years
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and years of of doing music and exploring
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different styles and trying different things and trying different instructors,
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even within my studio pursued higher education and really needed to specialize in something.
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And most of those students, at least off the top of my head,
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the three that I’m thinking of to I’m, I’m certain have had other instructors
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too, that helped them get to where they’re going.
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So I agree. I think that.
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For the I’ll still I’ll still kind of double down and say for those beginners
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in those beginner stages for beginners, you know, got to be in the middle.
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Yes. No, I absolutely agree. I didn’t mean to, like, take us to the next level.
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I just kind of wanted to mention it. I’ve been waiting for you to push back.
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But I do. I do love that you mentioned your students have have,
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like, moved through instructors within your your school, within your music school,
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which I think that’s so important. And not because one instructor is better than the other.
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I think we, we learn from the different perspectives and approaches and,
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you know, yeah, that’s awesome. Yeah. Cool. Okay.
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Should we, should we talk about what Steve Connolly, the guitar instructor would look like?
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Or should we just kind of. I mean like gray curly hair and sparkling blue eyes or something.
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I’m like, just keep seeing Mrs. Connolly and Steve.
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Like mashed up okay okay
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sorry go ahead well you know
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i don’t know if we should go down that track because then we’re going to talk
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about well what does it look like for a drum instructor what does it look like
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for a bass instructor what does it look like for a tuba instructor yeah is there
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a non-traditional tuba instructor oh hey we’ve got you know the polka bands
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that’s kind of right Right. Yeah.
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I suppose. You’re right. Let’s not go there. Let’s not go there.
418
00:32:33,375 –> 00:32:37,655
Yeah. Because it is this is overall we’re talking.
419
00:32:38,135 –> 00:32:41,095
It’s all the same. What we’re talking about, the different approaches,
420
00:32:41,235 –> 00:32:43,975
no matter the instrument, I think we’ve established.
421
00:32:44,695 –> 00:32:47,435
Established yeah where this kind of spot is going to be
422
00:32:47,435 –> 00:32:50,855
in the middle always right so i think
423
00:32:50,855 –> 00:32:55,815
we’ve talked about what mrs connelly could do to come closer to the center we’ve
424
00:32:55,815 –> 00:32:59,515
kind of established that especially with steve connelly the piano instructor
425
00:32:59,515 –> 00:33:09,915
i i mean this is being that like i started teaching music myself as a guitar instructor Dr.
426
00:33:12,204 –> 00:33:17,204
I feel passionately that I at least want to discuss a couple points,
427
00:33:17,324 –> 00:33:20,864
what I think those casual guitar instructors could do.
428
00:33:22,184 –> 00:33:27,484
Number one, just teach the whole song. You know, like teach the whole song.
429
00:33:27,684 –> 00:33:31,544
Don’t just teach like, hey, here’s this part and here’s this part.
430
00:33:31,644 –> 00:33:33,344
And then there you go. Put it all together.
431
00:33:33,524 –> 00:33:37,844
Teach the whole song. Teach them how to work those transitions from one part
432
00:33:37,844 –> 00:33:42,724
to the next. Teach them how, and we’re talking about rock and pop music for the most part.
433
00:33:42,844 –> 00:33:46,864
That’s usually what students want to learn. Yeah.
434
00:33:47,224 –> 00:33:55,464
Teach them how cyclical rock and pop music is and how to put the pieces together to play the full song.
435
00:33:56,324 –> 00:34:01,224
Focus on, like, if you don’t want to teach reading, because I will admit that
436
00:34:01,224 –> 00:34:07,264
I think reading on instruments like guitar and bass is very complex.
437
00:34:08,384 –> 00:34:14,244
Because of the way that the notes are laid out on the guitar and you have this weird matrix, right?
438
00:34:14,384 –> 00:34:19,484
I mean, if you want to really focus on reading guitar music,
439
00:34:19,644 –> 00:34:23,604
you also have to understand the different positions on the fretboard.
440
00:34:24,164 –> 00:34:28,164
And that’s a huge, huge task.
441
00:34:28,164 –> 00:34:30,924
Ask so if you’re not going to
442
00:34:30,924 –> 00:34:34,144
go that route which i understand it’s not for everyone and
443
00:34:34,144 –> 00:34:37,004
i think it’s for a very few at least teach kids
444
00:34:37,004 –> 00:34:41,684
how to read rhythms because guitar
445
00:34:41,684 –> 00:34:45,064
is mostly a rhythmic instrument and so
446
00:34:45,064 –> 00:34:48,124
many guitar players and guitar teachers focus on
447
00:34:48,124 –> 00:34:50,724
left hand like this is this is
448
00:34:50,724 –> 00:34:54,144
how you play scales and this is how you play notes and this is how you play melodies and
449
00:34:54,144 –> 00:34:58,184
it’s putting your fingers in the right place but they neglect the importance
450
00:34:58,184 –> 00:35:04,264
of rhythm and i think when when guitar students understand how to read rhythms
451
00:35:04,264 –> 00:35:10,164
then that applies to literally everything else they do so if nothing else teach
452
00:35:10,164 –> 00:35:13,964
them to read rhythms and for god’s sake write stuff down.
453
00:35:16,824 –> 00:35:19,984
They’re not gonna remember they’re in like oh
454
00:35:19,984 –> 00:35:27,884
gosh you know oh it’s yeah it’s it that’s a that’s a big one for me i mean when
455
00:35:27,884 –> 00:35:31,704
when instructors any instructor doesn’t write down what they’re supposed their
456
00:35:31,704 –> 00:35:35,744
their students are supposed to understand write something down you know like
457
00:35:35,744 –> 00:35:39,864
if you’re not going to use a method book okay write something down so that the kid understands
458
00:35:40,184 –> 00:35:43,164
how to do it yeah all right i’m i’m off
459
00:35:43,164 –> 00:35:49,684
my soapbox now all right all right as much as i you know like loved steve the
460
00:35:49,684 –> 00:35:55,664
guitar instructor as a kid yeah i see all the flaws now as someone who’s responsible
461
00:35:55,664 –> 00:36:00,444
to see like all of the students in my music school progress.
462
00:36:02,257 –> 00:36:05,537
We want more. Yes. All right.
463
00:36:06,577 –> 00:36:10,557
What else do you want to add to this? Because, I mean, I’ve got some stuff that
464
00:36:10,557 –> 00:36:13,517
I want to talk about related to why.
465
00:36:13,877 –> 00:36:16,857
You know, why all of this stuff is important to find the middle.
466
00:36:17,337 –> 00:36:20,837
Yeah. But what else do you want to talk about?
467
00:36:20,897 –> 00:36:27,417
I know you have a very different perspective being that the students at your
468
00:36:27,417 –> 00:36:30,237
music school, which is a Music Together Center.
469
00:36:30,917 –> 00:36:34,337
Yes. are babies they are
470
00:36:34,337 –> 00:36:37,117
babies and their parents and
471
00:36:37,117 –> 00:36:40,117
their caregivers yes yeah which really as
472
00:36:40,117 –> 00:36:45,817
we’ve mentioned before the parents are my real students but i’ve got in any
473
00:36:45,817 –> 00:36:53,297
given class we 25 classes a week of newborns to five-year-olds you know 10 to
474
00:36:53,297 –> 00:36:57,157
13 at one time in the room right Right. Just making music together.
475
00:36:57,597 –> 00:37:03,777
And so I’ll I mean, I’ll I’ll just touch on this, but I wanted to kind of talk
476
00:37:03,777 –> 00:37:06,017
about what it looks like in my space. Right.
477
00:37:07,717 –> 00:37:12,397
And this is maybe interesting, too. I was just talking with,
478
00:37:12,497 –> 00:37:16,897
oh, yes, one of my caregivers who described her three-year-old as a three-nager.
479
00:37:17,677 –> 00:37:21,937
Her daughter just turned three, and she’s like, oh, my goodness, I thought two was bad.
480
00:37:22,417 –> 00:37:26,437
Oh, I was like, oh, whoever told you two was bad, three is where it’s really
481
00:37:26,437 –> 00:37:29,317
at. That’s where we get all the big… I don’t remember.
482
00:37:29,577 –> 00:37:35,117
For me, I like my kids for that. I don’t remember any of it specifically. It’s just all a blur.
483
00:37:35,497 –> 00:37:38,777
I felt like I was in survival mode until they went to kindergarten. garden.
484
00:37:40,517 –> 00:37:44,257
Three, I remember three, particularly with my younger one, you know,
485
00:37:44,277 –> 00:37:49,457
it’s just more big emotions and opinions anyway.
486
00:37:50,117 –> 00:37:52,837
But we were laughing about that in class. And I said, well, you know,
487
00:37:52,917 –> 00:37:59,617
I try to remember those years and how we work through them with our three-year-olds
488
00:37:59,617 –> 00:38:02,397
because my oldest daughter is 12.
489
00:38:02,977 –> 00:38:08,217
And so we’re starting to go through some really big changes and big emotions
490
00:38:08,217 –> 00:38:09,777
and all that kind of stuff, middle school.
491
00:38:10,297 –> 00:38:15,757
And the language is different, but the approach isn’t all that different than
492
00:38:15,757 –> 00:38:19,717
what we do with our three-year-olds to some extent.
493
00:38:19,877 –> 00:38:25,577
Right? So with that in mind, I want to talk about my music together classroom,
494
00:38:26,317 –> 00:38:28,617
kind of traditional versus non-traditional.
495
00:38:29,397 –> 00:38:34,837
And so traditional classroom. Now, Now, when I say traditional,
496
00:38:34,977 –> 00:38:39,737
I’m thinking of really, I suppose, the kind of expectations that caregivers
497
00:38:39,737 –> 00:38:44,297
put on these little kids sometimes when they just don’t know better.
498
00:38:44,477 –> 00:38:46,797
So here are some of the things that I see in my classroom.
499
00:38:48,137 –> 00:38:54,057
They’ll expect or want the kids to sit in the circle. Stay seated, sit in the circle.
500
00:38:54,857 –> 00:38:58,517
And remember, we’re talking two and three years old. Do what the teacher is
501
00:38:58,517 –> 00:39:00,757
doing here. Go like this. Make sure you do that.
502
00:39:02,186 –> 00:39:05,946
Maybe manipulating the kid’s limbs, picking up their arm to try and tap the
503
00:39:05,946 –> 00:39:09,646
beat for the child, right? Because they’re not tapping the beat with us.
504
00:39:10,406 –> 00:39:14,766
Make sure you listen to the teacher, right? Just kind of talking through everything.
505
00:39:15,046 –> 00:39:16,566
Do this. Tap that together.
506
00:39:17,486 –> 00:39:21,886
Or, you know, no talking or sit down or don’t touch that.
507
00:39:22,386 –> 00:39:27,146
Lots of that. Okay? That’s what maybe I would call non-traditional.
508
00:39:27,846 –> 00:39:29,486
Keeping in theme with this episode.
509
00:39:30,486 –> 00:39:35,006
But my classroom would be non-traditional or what I like to call a child-led
510
00:39:35,006 –> 00:39:41,706
environment where we give the children freedom to move and explore through the
511
00:39:41,706 –> 00:39:44,086
space, the classroom, safely.
512
00:39:44,166 –> 00:39:47,546
As long as they’re safe, they can touch the wall, point at the pictures,
513
00:39:47,986 –> 00:39:52,466
whatever they want, or sit quietly and watch. That’s great, too.
514
00:39:52,726 –> 00:39:55,026
The only expectation is that the kids will be kids.
515
00:39:55,706 –> 00:39:57,446
Caregiver participation is expected.
516
00:39:58,366 –> 00:40:03,006
That’s what we want because we want to show the kids what to do,
517
00:40:03,126 –> 00:40:05,246
not tell them, show them.
518
00:40:05,626 –> 00:40:07,886
And that’s how we provide that musical immersion.
519
00:40:08,846 –> 00:40:13,626
One thing that I implement a lot in the classroom I think is really important
520
00:40:13,626 –> 00:40:15,926
is the idea of accept and include.
521
00:40:16,786 –> 00:40:22,586
So this is a good way for me to teach the parents to actually say we’re playing
522
00:40:22,586 –> 00:40:25,646
rhythm sticks and we’ve got our red rhythm sticks and we’re drumming on the
523
00:40:25,646 –> 00:40:28,346
ground or we’re tapping them together, whatever it might be.
524
00:40:28,886 –> 00:40:34,126
And a caregiver is saying, do what Mandy is doing, you know tap them together
525
00:40:34,126 –> 00:40:37,866
tap them together but this student just has them both in one hand,
526
00:40:38,406 –> 00:40:41,706
banging on the ground yeah right that’s fine
527
00:40:41,706 –> 00:40:46,426
that’s okay so what i’ll do is i’ll say hey everybody look what look what zach
528
00:40:46,426 –> 00:40:51,006
is doing let’s try that and i i will accept and include exactly what that child
529
00:40:51,006 –> 00:40:56,746
is doing tap them on the ground which you know cues the the caregiver into like
530
00:40:56,746 –> 00:41:01,286
oh okay that’s fine then they don’t have to do exactly what we’re doing.
531
00:41:02,879 –> 00:41:08,159
You know, if someone’s mooing, this is the space I live in, John.
532
00:41:08,339 –> 00:41:12,059
If someone’s mooing in class, good idea, Zach.
533
00:41:12,259 –> 00:41:18,819
Like, we will moo the verse, right? Accept and include just because we’re playing with music.
534
00:41:19,259 –> 00:41:22,139
So totally different than what you’ve got going on.
535
00:41:22,259 –> 00:41:25,099
You know what, though? It isn’t. And here’s why.
536
00:41:25,199 –> 00:41:33,519
As you were explaining that, I see a clear, clear parallel. So what you’re talking
537
00:41:33,519 –> 00:41:36,999
about, though, is you’re talking about the expectations from the parent.
538
00:41:37,759 –> 00:41:45,839
And that’s what the parent views as successful versus what the student’s goals
539
00:41:45,839 –> 00:41:49,499
are, what the student feels is successful.
540
00:41:49,499 –> 00:41:53,979
And to bring it full circle, right, if we’re talking about Mrs.
541
00:41:54,099 –> 00:41:58,599
Connelly, for instance, or Steve, the guitar instructor, Mrs.
542
00:41:58,799 –> 00:42:05,839
Connelly may be more in tuned with what the parents are going to view as successful,
543
00:42:05,959 –> 00:42:10,959
where Steve, the guitar instructor, is going to be more in tune with what the
544
00:42:10,959 –> 00:42:12,839
student views as successful.
545
00:42:12,839 –> 00:42:19,739
Which, again, that’s all well and good, but none of these scenarios are static.
546
00:42:20,399 –> 00:42:26,599
They’re always changing. They’re always moving. And the goal of the student is.
547
00:42:27,743 –> 00:42:31,063
Is ultimately going to dictate i think
548
00:42:31,063 –> 00:42:35,343
whether or not they succeed yeah yeah
549
00:42:35,343 –> 00:42:40,763
absolutely right because if and again it’s going to be in the middle if if it
550
00:42:40,763 –> 00:42:45,643
gets too too rigid and boring in mrs connelly’s lessons then they’re going to
551
00:42:45,643 –> 00:42:51,383
check out if if it gets to the point where they feel like man when am i you
552
00:42:51,383 –> 00:42:54,623
know i’m learning these songs which is cool and steve’s fun to hang But like,
553
00:42:54,683 –> 00:42:57,903
I don’t feel like I’m learning music. I’ve been doing this for months.
554
00:42:58,243 –> 00:43:03,983
Then they’re going to check out, you know, and I think what you said,
555
00:43:04,123 –> 00:43:08,743
you said, well, it’s not with your 12 year olds, not that different than the
556
00:43:08,743 –> 00:43:10,043
three year olds. It’s not.
557
00:43:10,183 –> 00:43:15,943
It’s not. It’s like just being conscious of what the students goals are and
558
00:43:15,943 –> 00:43:23,103
what you see as like their trajectory and how you can help them achieve their goals.
559
00:43:23,763 –> 00:43:29,063
Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I was even going to go through and talk about
560
00:43:29,063 –> 00:43:30,403
like, well, what else can we do?
561
00:43:30,483 –> 00:43:32,883
I mean, it’s going to be different for every student.
562
00:43:33,283 –> 00:43:38,823
But in the end, like I see why this is so important.
563
00:43:38,923 –> 00:43:41,883
And this is for me, this is an argument for.
564
00:43:43,483 –> 00:43:47,443
I mean, there’s a lot of points to this. Right. But in the end,
565
00:43:47,443 –> 00:43:49,743
it’s if it’s an argument for retention.
566
00:43:50,363 –> 00:43:55,023
Right. For the instructor. You obviously want to keep these students because
567
00:43:55,023 –> 00:43:57,023
then you don’t have to get more students, right?
568
00:43:57,123 –> 00:44:00,403
If you have one student, you don’t have to worry about working to get another student.
569
00:44:00,463 –> 00:44:06,223
If you run a studio with multiple instructors, well, it’s important to have
570
00:44:06,223 –> 00:44:08,643
strong retention because then you’re going to keep your employees happy.
571
00:44:10,216 –> 00:44:15,756
So more engaged students means that they’re enjoying what they’re learning,
572
00:44:15,896 –> 00:44:21,376
whether that means they’re mooing in your class, Mandy, or,
573
00:44:21,556 –> 00:44:24,276
you know, learning to play whatever
574
00:44:24,276 –> 00:44:28,856
their favorite song is first and then build on that, whatever it is.
575
00:44:29,016 –> 00:44:32,976
That enjoyment in their lessons means that the students are going to be invested
576
00:44:32,976 –> 00:44:38,916
in learning and they want to learn more. And then, again, this equals greater retention.
577
00:44:39,476 –> 00:44:46,796
And let’s be honest, I mean, for the most part, if parents see their students
578
00:44:46,796 –> 00:44:51,456
are happy and progressing, then the parents are going to be happy.
579
00:44:52,216 –> 00:44:58,396
Absolutely. Yeah. Right. So it’s you’ve got this developmental win for the students.
580
00:44:58,756 –> 00:45:03,196
You’ve got successful choice win for the parents because the parents are like,
581
00:45:03,276 –> 00:45:06,336
oh, wow, I’m really happy about this instructor that we chose.
582
00:45:06,696 –> 00:45:10,616
Right. I’m really happy about Mandy’s music together class because,
583
00:45:10,656 –> 00:45:15,696
man, like Wednesday mornings or Tuesday mornings or whatever,
584
00:45:15,796 –> 00:45:20,956
after we got out the class, Zach is moving all the way home. Yeah.
585
00:45:21,016 –> 00:45:24,696
You know, to the beat or the melody that we sang, right?
586
00:45:24,796 –> 00:45:27,576
You know, we see it in these early ages, too.
587
00:45:28,156 –> 00:45:32,516
The results of this. Mooing doesn’t mean we’re not learning music.
588
00:45:33,076 –> 00:45:38,696
We can, you know, we can moo on pitch and to the beat.
589
00:45:39,016 –> 00:45:45,536
But it’s just accepting, you know, what the student was doing at the time and making it fun.
590
00:45:46,056 –> 00:45:50,656
Same thing as accepting that, you know, Josie wants to play Elton John.
591
00:45:51,776 –> 00:45:55,196
Right. Same thing. Same thing. Yeah. This is, this is fantastic.
592
00:45:56,536 –> 00:46:01,016
Anything I, you know, that’s like, literally, I feel like every point I needed
593
00:46:01,016 –> 00:46:05,776
to make in this, I feel like I made, is there anything that like,
594
00:46:05,816 –> 00:46:09,456
you feel like you just need to drive another point home to close it?
595
00:46:10,640 –> 00:46:15,360
No, no. I feel like we did a good job with that. Yeah.
596
00:46:15,900 –> 00:46:20,680
I love it. We had to strive to be Steve Connolly, all of us. Oh, my gosh.
597
00:46:20,980 –> 00:46:24,560
I have a very weird picture of Steve in my head. Steve Connolly.
598
00:46:26,180 –> 00:46:29,700
No, but this was such an important conversation. Really cool.
599
00:46:30,320 –> 00:46:32,720
All right. That you can be a mix of both.
600
00:46:34,060 –> 00:46:37,600
Mandy, I love this. This has been like a really cool conversation.
601
00:46:37,920 –> 00:46:42,280
I didn’t expect it to go where it did, but we ended with a third avatar,
602
00:46:42,480 –> 00:46:45,120
which is Steve Connolly. He’s the ultimate instructor.
603
00:46:45,760 –> 00:46:50,200
And with that, I think we’re going to wrap this episode of Rock School Proprietor
604
00:46:50,200 –> 00:46:51,700
Podcast. I’m John Kozicki.
605
00:46:52,240 –> 00:46:56,320
I’m Mandy York. Thanks, Mandy. Thanks. Yeah. See you later.
606
00:46:57,940 –> 00:47:01,760
If you have topic suggestions or questions, or maybe you’ve got a Mrs.
607
00:47:01,820 –> 00:47:05,680
Connolly story of your own, we’d love to hear it. You can contact us at info
608
00:47:05,680 –> 00:47:08,060
at rockschoolproprietor.com.
609
00:47:08,320 –> 00:47:11,900
We’d love to hear it and consider your suggestions for future shows.
610
00:47:12,020 –> 00:47:17,360
Show notes and transcripts for this and all episodes can be found at rockschoolproprietor.com.
611
00:47:17,660 –> 00:47:22,740
I am at rock.school.proprietor on Instagram if you’d like to connect with me there.
612
00:47:23,040 –> 00:47:26,000
You can also find me on LinkedIn as John Kazicki.
613
00:47:26,600 –> 00:47:30,660
As always, if you enjoyed this show and gained insight from our conversations,
614
00:47:30,900 –> 00:47:32,220
then we We count that as a win.
615
00:47:32,640 –> 00:47:36,800
All we ask in return is that you pay it forward and please share the show with
616
00:47:36,800 –> 00:47:37,940
someone you think needs to know.
617
00:47:37,840 –> 00:47:45,854
Music.
