On this episode of the Rock School Proprietor Podcast, John Kozicki (Michigan Rock School and RockSchoolProprietor.com) and Mandy York (Music Time of Milford) explores a compelling story about a 13-year-old music student facing challenges and discovering new ways to connect with music. They highlights the importance of personalized teaching, understanding student strengths, and the power of flexibility in music education.
In this episode:
- How understanding the challenges and goals of students (and parents) can create a blueprint for personalized teaching
- Why parents don’t always view musical progress as the main measure of success in music lessons, and how just acknowledging students’ strengths and challenges may mean more to parents.
- The impact of learning differences on music education, and how to tailor lesson content to each individual student.
If you goal is attracting more students for you lesson studio, understanding the unique goals of students and parents will help. This episode provides a unique perspective centered on getting to know your students before they even walk through the doors of your music lesson studio.
Rock School Proprietor is a podcast for independent music school owners and lesson studio operators looking to attract more students and create a sustainable business. New episodes drop Wednesdays at RockSchoolProprietor.com and on all podcast streaming platforms.
Interested in the Building a Band Program webinar?
We’re planning a free live webinar to accompany the Building a Band Program series of episodes on Friday, July 24, 2026. John will go deeper on the topics and answer your questions directly. If you’re interested, send an email to info@rockschoolproprietor.com with the subject line Webinar and we will be in touch with details.
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Episode Transcript:
(Please note: This transcript was generated by robots. There may be errors. For the best experience, please listen to the podcast episode.)
John Kozicki (00:01.22)
Welcome to Rock School, a proprietor podcast. My name is John Kozicki.
Mandy York (00:05.591)
and I’m Mandi York.
John Kozicki (00:07.837)
I got a story for you, Mandy. This is, I don’t really know what this episode’s gonna be about.
Mandy York (00:09.964)
I love a good story.
Mandy York (00:19.575)
All right.
John Kozicki (00:20.159)
just gonna be completely honest. know there’s I know there are like tons of little like nuggets and morals built into this. But I think they’re going to reveal themselves as as I tell the story. Now I haven’t not told you this story. I kind of gave you a couple of some bullet points. So all this brand new. This is something that happened to me this week. And it’s it was kind of really profound.
Mandy York (00:22.21)
We
John Kozicki (00:50.321)
in the back end. So I’ll just I’ll just start from the beginning. Got a call. I want to say it was early this week, like maybe Monday. And it was from a mom who had been recommended to my studio from some two other parents who are kids from our program. She has a son.
who’s 13 years old, and she tells me he absolutely loves music. And I’m all excited, of course, as these things go, But she also says, and this is kind of a quote, has some learning disabilities. And she, I think she mentioned dyslexia.
but she was kind of vague, which it is what it is. I I think, I don’t remember if you and I have had conversations about this, but I know I’ve had conversations with maybe some guests about when parents are trying to disclose some things about their kids. How do you be sensitive to it? How do you just kind of be a listener and take that information? But in this situation, the reason it was important,
Mandy York (02:03.352)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (02:15.369)
for her to share is because she also said that it’s been really frustrating for him when it comes to reading music. And he’s had some private lessons already. He did band in school, which both of those, she said, just kind of ended in a lot of frustration. And…
And I think like. Me listening to this thinking about. You know middle school band, it may not be. I can’t necessarily fault the instructor. The band teacher, right? Because they’ve got like however many kids 3040 kids. 80. Yeah, yeah. So.
Mandy York (03:02.99)
80. I have a middle school band director husband. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a lot of students.
John Kozicki (03:11.807)
You know, if you do have a kid who learns differently, how do you manage that? like maybe you have two, maybe you have 10, maybe you have more than that in a class of 80, the kids just learn differently. You don’t really have a choice. It’s like, this is how we have to teach the instrument. This is how we have to teach reading. But the point is, that was not a good experience.
for this kit. Now on top of that.
The mom tells me that family’s pretty musical. She was in band when she was in school. This boy has an older sibling who excelled in high school band and has recently graduated and so played trumpet and then self-taught himself. Guitar, piano. This kid’s got a younger sibling who I…
think she said is also starting band and playing piano. So there’s a lot in, you know, in this phone conversation. And for me, I’m just taking it all in and thinking, okay, and she kept she kept saying he loves music. And I kept taking in thinking like, okay, is this can I help this kid?
you know, is this something that is there something we can do? Because I could tell from the mom’s perspective, she’s just trying to figure this out. You know, for her kid. And so I just suggested, well, let’s do a tour. Bring him in real casual. Well, like, you know, show you the space and, know, maybe I can.
Mandy York (04:59.71)
yeah.
John Kozicki (05:15.166)
get him to play a little bit, right? Because he’s been, she also told me he’s been working with Rocksmith, the video game, do you know that video game, Rocksmith? It’s kind of like a souped up version of Guitar Hero.
Mandy York (05:26.328)
I don’t know that. No.
Mandy York (05:31.534)
Okay, I was gonna say that’s the only thing I remember. Guitar Hero.
John Kozicki (05:33.883)
Yeah, it’s but you use but with Rocksmith you use a real guitar. It’s not just a controller that’s shaped like a guitar, but you use a real a real guitar. And I’ve never played it, so I can’t talk in detail about it. But you know, you like supposed to be a learning tool, but also like a like play along with these songs type of thing, right? So he’s been doing that and trying to teach himself some stuff on YouTube.
Again, all sort of suggests that here’s a kid who, yeah, he really does love music, but unfortunately, yeah, but unfortunately, he’s just already had some bad experiences.
Mandy York (06:08.568)
Sounds motivated. Yeah.
John Kozicki (06:19.81)
Um, so when I tell you all that, like what, guess, how do you think that mom feels? How do you think this kid feels?
Mandy York (06:31.564)
Yeah, I mean, I can, as a mom, I can, I’m sure she’s frustrated, right? I’m sure she’s frustrated with the experiences that she’s had and that she can’t, has not yet found something that works for her kid because she knows he loves music. He loves music. He’s, he’s, he’s learning on YouTube. He, you know, it, seems clear that he wants to play. Why didn’t private lessons work? Why didn’t…
John Kozicki (06:51.291)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (07:01.804)
you know, school band work. can sure, I can, I’m sure she’s frustrated about that.
John Kozicki (07:03.155)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (07:07.74)
Well, yeah, and I also think.
John Kozicki (07:13.826)
she did band when she was younger and it worked for her. Her oldest, it clearly worked for her oldest. It’s working for her youngest. know, so like I, I, I don’t know. It’s, that’s gotta be tough as a parent, just looking for like, she knows this kid likes music, loves music. She, she corrected me on that at one point.
Mandy York (07:33.698)
Yep. yeah.
John Kozicki (07:42.407)
I said likes and she said loves. Yeah. So just she knows it’s in there. How do how does she find the way to bring it out even though she’s tried like private lessons already and and instructor and then it got me thinking about like how does this kid feel?
Mandy York (07:44.942)
Aww. That’s cool.
John Kozicki (08:06.397)
Right?
Mandy York (08:06.53)
That’s even tougher. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if mom is frustrated, he’s definitely frustrated. And, I mean, I can, I can just imagine him feeling like other, you know, like it works for big, big sibling, brother or sister. It’s, you know, my peers in class. Why?
John Kozicki (08:24.924)
Mmm, yeah.
Mandy York (08:33.912)
Why isn’t it working for me? why am I not enjoying this as much, this experience? Why isn’t it clicking, I guess? Yeah.
John Kozicki (08:38.492)
Right. Yeah. And I mean, maybe I’m reading too much into it, but, you know, it also makes me think about.
And I don’t know beyond what she shared about using the quote, again, learning disabilities. Like, is this affecting him in other ways? And, you know, in school, right? If it’s dyslexia, man, that’s got to be a challenge in and of itself. Just in regular school. I really was like after this phone call, because they agreed to do the tour.
Mandy York (09:02.348)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
John Kozicki (09:18.906)
And after the phone call, I was like, man, I hope I desperately hope there’s something I can do, you know. So they came in for the tour yesterday. And the first thing the mom tells me when they walk in the door is that he didn’t want to come.
Mandy York (09:24.44)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (09:43.256)
This is how she led it, the tour.
John Kozicki (09:44.622)
Yes, like, right. He didn’t want to come. They were having conversations in the car and she was like, well, just kind of have an open mind about it. But he didn’t want to come, you know, which makes me wonder, man, is he already just kind of shut down to this? You know, it’s like. Bad experiences already like just let me do my thing.
You know, let me play the video game. Let me look up YouTube videos. So I go into, I’m very non-patronizing in these situations. Like when we have kids come in for tours, like I’ll briefly talk with the parent and then all my attention’s on the student. You know, like, hey, what do you like? What kind of music do you like? What kind of guitar do you play? Do you any favorite songs?
It’s like just a conversation with this person, right? To find some common ground. And he just wasn’t having it. was like, he had walls built up. Didn’t want to entertain my, you know, my attempts at making any sort of connection on music. So I was like, oh, this is going to be, it’s going to be tough.
Mandy York (10:44.408)
Mm-hmm.
That’s great.
Mandy York (10:56.014)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (11:08.337)
So I’m giving the tour, just showing them around the different lesson rooms, the band room. And we got to the drum lesson room. And I remembered also, I think in the phone call, mom told me something about an interest in percussion. So I just said, you want to try the drums? We got some drumsticks. He’s like, yeah, I’ll try the drums.
So he sits down at the drums and I was like, do you need me to tell you what to do? And he was like, well, maybe. Because I didn’t even think, does he need a little instruction? So get a real basic, like, OK, just alternate, kick, snare, kick, snare. Like kick is on one and three, snare is on two and four. Let’s just try that. so give him the quick little overview.
gets behind the drum set. And then he just starts playing a drum groove. Like, like doing mostly the right things, a couple things here and there that like needed some attention, but like, he was doing it. And so that was, in my mind, I’m like, he already knows, he already understands rhythm. So wherever he get it came from, he already understands rhythm. Something that’s, that’s amazing. And
Honestly, in hindsight, I think that might have been like what broke the ice a little bit is, is that him playing the drums. So I get him into another lesson room and sit down and put a guitar in his hands. And I just hadn’t he had mentioned a few minutes earlier, a song that he was interested. So I was like, all right, well, let me listen to the song. Let me see if there’s any part of the song that I can maybe try and show him on the spot.
Mandy York (12:40.738)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (13:04.419)
And so that’s exactly what we did. And he, like I showed him what to do and he started doing it like very little like explanation needed. Right. And I realized he also has a really great ear. So he’s hearing things correctly. He’s I could I noticed he was correcting himself if he played a wrong note and finding the correct note on the guitar. He’s.
Mandy York (13:27.64)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (13:31.381)
me like I didn’t have to give any explanation about how to use the guitar. He’s already doing it. There’s things here and there like he was using one finger for a lot of stuff, but not important point being is like, in that short period of time. What I learned is he already has a really strong sense of rhythm. He’s got a great ear. And he gets it.
John Kozicki (13:56.827)
Which is such a bummer to me that like this kid who already has such a strong foundation in these things. Like just it didn’t work for him in private lessons. You know. It’s like. Almost heartbreaking. So I’m thinking like this is there’s a such a.
Mandy York (14:13.475)
Yeah.
Mandy York (14:17.986)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (14:26.597)
massive advantage here in this kid starting, starting lessons. And after, you know, like 20, 30 minutes of this tour, and just sitting with him, he’s now he’s excited about taking lessons, right? Like 20 minutes earlier, he was like, I don’t want to be here. Now he’s like, ready to start lessons. And not only that, as we’re looking at, like schedule and things like that.
he was checking out one of the bands that had just started rehearsal and he’s interested in doing that too.
Which I left the studio after that just thinking like, and obviously I haven’t really done anything yet, right? I’m pretty sure that we’re gonna be able to help this kid really thrive. I don’t know. But I left there just thinking like, this is why the work that we do.
is important.
So with all that said, mean, like help me get some context here because this is where I think for our conversation for this podcast, it’s important that we reflect and figure out like, well, what are the lessons that we take away from this experience? Is there? Okay.
Mandy York (15:55.64)
There’s so much here. Yes. Yeah, there really is. think this is such a cool story and what a cool experience that you had. mean, kind of overarchingly, the thing that I think of is that music is for everybody, right? It’s for everybody. You just have to find the fit. There’s not always a one size fits all, right?
John Kozicki (16:12.178)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (16:24.476)
Yeah.
Mandy York (16:24.962)
That’s what happened here. He tried this, he tried that, and it’s really cool how he entered the building, kind of skeptical. And then you put a couple drumsticks in his hand, a guitar, he warmed up and then he got excited. Like from beginning to end of that visit, that’s really neat. It seems like maybe he’s found the fit. You got to plug him in and get going, but…
John Kozicki (16:55.579)
Yeah, I mean, I think so. It made me think about.
Mandy York (16:58.508)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (17:05.095)
So and again, I don’t want to get into like diagnosis and what this might be like for this kid or any kid in school who does have a diagnosis, whether it’s dyslexia, ADHD, know, autism, whatever.
treading lightly here. Oftentimes the diagnosis then sort of like helps to dictate the path. If that makes sense, maybe not dictate, right? Maybe not, but suggests there’s a diagnosis. So this is the treatment plan or this is the lesson plan.
Mandy York (17:51.864)
This is what you need.
John Kozicki (17:57.117)
I felt like I had a little bit of freedom there because I didn’t really know. So me going into this was really more about having the advantage of looking for what his strengths are.
not looking at what are any sort of already established or supposed or diagnosed weaknesses or challenges. It was really just, okay, let’s see what this kid is good at. Let’s see what he can do. Let’s see what fires him up and let’s just play to those strengths. That was my big kind of realization, I think.
And it does make me again sort of reflect on like, well, does that happen for this kid in other places in his life?
Mandy York (18:57.272)
Right? You, I think like we need to be flexible and creative with some students, right? Like I said, it’s not all, it’s not a one size fits all every time. What I think about too, in your story, it’s neat that he got excited about rock band. Sometimes that smaller group is a better fit, right? And he may be able to make like,
John Kozicki (19:10.013)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (19:23.163)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (19:25.27)
more meaningful connections. That’s the other piece of this too. It’s the music, but like he in a smaller group, rock band where they’re all there for the same reason, working towards a common goal. Like he might make some really strong connections there too, with other kids, which could be positive. If, if big F, if he’s struggling in other areas also, right? We don’t know.
John Kozicki (19:39.847)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (19:47.581)
Sure, and we don’t know. But like it does, it got me thinking also about…
private lessons and you know we kind of we talked a little bit about like the middle school band it’s like okay how do you teach a classroom of as you said 80 kids you know how do you connect with all of them how do you get all of them to understand the material you know you kind of have to standardize it you have to work on a curriculum there’s not much
one teacher can do in that situation. But isn’t that in part what private lessons should be for?
Mandy York (20:39.193)
yeah, I agree. It is disappointing that he wasn’t able to thrive in a private lesson, right? Is that what you’re getting at?
John Kozicki (20:41.969)
You know?
John Kozicki (20:49.475)
Right, and again, I don’t know the instructor. I don’t know what the path was. private lessons are supposed to be this premium service. And maybe it was just a bad fit, right? Maybe that’s it. But I think we do have a massive advantage in private lessons and as private lesson instructors.
Mandy York (20:57.72)
Sure.
Mandy York (21:04.654)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
John Kozicki (21:18.333)
to really understand how the students learn because we do have that one-on-one with them and make those adjustments. And I don’t know, maybe I’m gonna offend some people here, but if every one of your private lessons, and I mean, we both know I’ve got the chip on my shoulder still from when I was nine years old taking piano lessons. But if every one of those private lessons is the same,
Mandy York (21:43.604)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
John Kozicki (21:48.829)
Is it customized or is it just the same as that middle school band class with 80 kids in the the room? it’s but it’s just one on one. You know, if it’s not going to be tailored to how a kid learns, how a student learns and like what their strengths are and like leveraging those so that then you can help them to grow as a student based based on what they’re already good at.
I don’t know. It bums me out.
Mandy York (22:23.094)
Yeah, no, hear you. Yep. If every single one of your students is just working through page by page of the method book.
John Kozicki (22:30.129)
right.
Mandy York (22:31.31)
Are you customizing? Yeah. And not to say I’m not going to knock the method book totally. And not to say all of your students could be working out of a similar curriculum, but there’s room. Yeah.
John Kozicki (22:36.209)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (22:41.435)
Yeah, time and a place. It can create a good foundation, know, good jumping off point. It just like and this is one of the things that, okay, here’s the takeaway, because we talk about this all the time. It can’t just be that. It can’t. You know, I don’t know.
Mandy York (23:00.738)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (23:09.371)
Yeah, sorry, I’m like really like I want this kid. I desperately want this kid.
to for his love of music to match his engagement with his instrument at this point, if that makes sense. And, you know, it’s too early to like it could totally blow up in my face, right? It may just not work for him in my studio. I don’t know. I guess we’ll start to see starting next week when he starts lessons. But
Mandy York (23:25.474)
Yeah. It does. Yeah.
Mandy York (23:33.826)
You
Mandy York (23:47.224)
Yeah. No, it’s exciting. I like this. Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (23:51.037)
So yeah, it’s got me thinking about a lot of stuff. All right, go ahead.
Mandy York (23:54.658)
Yeah. No, I, it has me thinking about group instructors too, like, like the band director. it is hard to, to teach to every student, and, and their abilities. and I would say that some students that,
Some students that have.
different learning abilities, okay? They can thrive in the group environment. They can, because I mean, I’ve seen that, right? And I know my husband has seen that. So it’s not even to say that like, can’t even define this, like the students with dyslexia or the students with this are not a good fit for the large group.
John Kozicki (24:36.733)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (24:57.102)
Because sometimes they are, and sometimes they thrive there. It really is kind of per child, right? And I feel for those instructors that have to have to teach to the whole, the large group that is really tricky. And then, yeah, go ahead.
John Kozicki (24:57.423)
Yeah, right. Yes.
John Kozicki (25:13.905)
Yeah, right.
was, I was going to say how frustrating that must be even for that teacher in a large group.
when they know they just can’t.
provide the attention that’s necessary for one student or two students or whoever, right? They just can’t, you know? The demand for their time and their attention is just not there when it comes to that single learner that happens to learn differently.
Mandy York (25:36.535)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (25:41.856)
Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (25:54.638)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it’s just too large of a group. They really are limited. I think about in my studio though too, I’m not teaching large groups. I don’t teach more than 13 elementary kids at a time. But even in that group, because, and everyone knows I teach early childhood, bitty babies through age five, and I do have these classes that are.
John Kozicki (26:19.419)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Mandy York (26:24.216)
K through second. And that’s where I might get up to 13 kids at a time. And I put Jembe drums in their hands. So I found that when I have, and I’m treading lightly here too, unique learners, okay. It is always really helpful to work with the parents when there is an instructor and parent
John Kozicki (26:33.916)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (26:43.047)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (26:54.51)
partnership happening where you can say, mean, your mom shared a little bit with you, kind of opened up what’s happening. I have caregivers that share with me, this is what we’re dealing with right now and this is maybe the therapies or activities that we’re doing to support our student. And I have a little bit of background and parents can let me know.
John Kozicki (26:55.559)
Yeah.
Mandy York (27:23.042)
Give me tools. These are things that are working for us so that I know when I’m in the room with that student to help. even, mean, 13 kids is not a huge group, when you have special learners that need extra attention, it’s so helpful when you have the backing of a parent that you can communicate with and they can reinforce at home and they can give you the tools that you need to be.
helping the student in the classroom. Does that make sense? Yeah.
John Kozicki (27:56.125)
I think so. I’m glad you mentioned that because it did make me ponder in your classroom.
little different because you’ve said that the kids are free to sort of explore how they’re connecting with with music. Okay. Okay. So you’re done. Okay. Yeah, that’s I guess that’s the question. Do you still lean more towards structure or are you able to maybe play to strengths in a way that’s
Mandy York (28:11.906)
Well, that’s the babies. And that’s the babies. I’m talking about kindergarten through second grade, which is more structured for me. Yeah. Yes.
Mandy York (28:34.286)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (28:35.579)
that’s less structured. I don’t know.
Mandy York (28:38.594)
Yeah, I mean, in my classes, do like to give, you know, I make, use the term conductor a lot, who wants to conduct this section or, know, or, we, we need a movement for this dance. How are we going to move our bodies in this section of the music? So it’s a lot of, accepting and including ideas from the kids. That’s a place, you know, that’s a place where I can, connect.
John Kozicki (28:46.587)
Mmm. Yeah.
John Kozicki (29:02.78)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (29:08.46)
with some of those special learners too. they’re able, at least I find with some of the kids, that’s what they’re craving. want, they’re eager participators and they want, they want to be part of the process. Yeah. So it’s a mix of structure, but also handing over the baton a little bit. I think structure is important. You know, I do.
John Kozicki (29:22.621)
Yeah.
Mandy York (29:35.52)
So, and as we’re getting older, we need to know how to work in a group. I mean, that’s what the band is all about too, right? Rock band, you’re cooperating, working in a group. Right.
John Kozicki (29:35.676)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (29:44.433)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I’m not anti-structure, you know, and…
I’m anti the same. Yeah, I’m anti the same structure for everyone. And there are so many ways to structure, provide structure. I’m I’m about flexibility. I’m about. Like that connection. And figuring out what’s going to work for each individual learner. Like you said, procreativity.
Mandy York (29:53.304)
but we’re pro creativity.
Mandy York (29:58.797)
Yes.
John Kozicki (30:24.977)
Yeah, I don’t know. I always have a hard time with this because when we get into these conversations, feel like I’m shaming private piano instructors. I feel like I’m shaming method books. I’m not, like I’ve got, again, I mentioned it. I’ve got a chip on my shoulder about how those tools are used sometimes. And…
You know this story, this situation, this is one that gets me fired up because I feel like. It like it just failed. You know, and at 13 years old. I mean like is could this kid have fallen through the cracks and just like said, forget it. Music is not for me. And what a shame now knowing like how what a solid foundation he already has.
So that’s what got me fired up.
Mandy York (31:24.962)
Yeah. No. like, it’s, it’s, it’s almost surprising that even at 13, it ha he hasn’t fallen off already. Do you know what I mean? Like, and kudos to the parents. Not all kids have that, you know, mom sees the love for music and is, persistent in trying to find a good fit. So that’s really cool.
John Kozicki (31:34.758)
Right? Yeah.
John Kozicki (31:38.939)
Yes. Yeah. Right.
John Kozicki (31:49.693)
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. All right. So morals take what it take from the story. What you will. But man, just like, you know, talk to the kids, like, figure out what they’re what’s going to fire them up. I mean, again, do like a little plea. We need some ratings and reviews on Apple podcast and Spotify. So, you know,
Mandy York (31:59.414)
Yeah, right.
John Kozicki (32:19.865)
If this resonated with you and our stories are helpful, please help us out here. Yeah, so I think that’s going to do it. Weird episode here, more story based, for any, like keep fighting the good fight, right? Keep doing this stuff because it’s like, it’s working, it’s working.
Mandy York (32:27.458)
Yeah, thank you.
Mandy York (32:36.503)
I like that.
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (32:44.182)
Yeah, totally. you know, rate and review, please. We love that. But also like send us your stories. Send us your stories and your questions. That’s great. I like sharing stories.
John Kozicki (32:52.272)
Oh yes, yes, great suggestion. Yeah, stories like this, love to hear them. So please, yes, I know it’s those. So that’ll do it. We’ll wrap this one up. I’ll talk to you next time, Andy. All right, bye.
Mandy York (33:06.222)
Thanks, John. Bye.
