On this episode of the Rock School Proprietor Podcast, John Kozicki (Michigan Rock School and RockSchoolProprietor.com) and Mandy York (Music Time of Milford) tackle whether music instructors should be classified as employees or independent contractors and why that decision is important for every studio.
They break down the criteria the IRS uses to assess classification by behavioral control, financial control, and the relationship of the parties. John and Mandy also trace how our industry evolved from music-store lessons to dedicated lesson studios, and how the instructor classification may just be slower in that evolution. They also discuss practical considerations like contracts, insurance, background checks, and how employment status shapes studio culture.
Topics discussed:
- Evolution of music studio business models from retail to education
- IRS criteria for classifying employees vs contractors
- Legal and tax considerations for music instructors
- The importance of consulting professionals for business setup
Whether you’re starting a studio or re-evaluating your setup, this episode offers a clear framework to help you rethink instructor roles and make informed decisions.
Interested in the Building a Band Program webinar?
We’re planning a free live webinar to accompany the Building a Band Program series of episoders on Friday, July 24, 2026. John will go deeper on the topics and answer your questions directly. If you’re interested, send an email to info@rockschoolproprietor.com with the subject line Webinar and we will be in touch with details.
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Episode Transcript:
(Please note: This transcript was generated by robots. There may be errors. For the best experience, please listen to the podcast episode.)
John Kozicki (00:01.34)
Welcome to Rock School Proprietor podcast. My name is John Kozicki. You ready for my story today, Mandy? We haven’t we haven’t talked. Yeah, we haven’t talked in a couple of weeks. And my story is totally not related to what we’re going to talk about on as sort of our main topic today, which is honestly a really as I was saying.
Mandy York (00:05.207)
and I’m Mandi York.
Mandy York (00:09.55)
yes, I’m so excited for your story. You made me wait until the podcast.
John Kozicki (00:27.564)
to you before we started recording. It’s super boring. It’s like this whole, should music instructors be employees or contractors debate? And it’s this heated thing. But my story is not related to that. But I wanted to share it because it’s one of these things that…
Big sigh, business ownership, right? Small business ownership. So a few months ago, I decided to switch internet companies at work. And I’m not gonna name the names of the internet company that I was with and the internet company that I am currently now with. But this new-ish internet company, it’s available in our town now. And…
Mandy York (00:49.645)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (01:16.116)
It was compelling enough that I was like, yeah, cool. I think this is a good choice. Well, because they’re new to our town, they haven’t built the infrastructure completely into like everywhere. So meaning I signed this contract back in like November and there was this entire process of permits and like running lines and getting the service into my building. Right. So was a month’s long thing.
And so I finally got the internet a couple of weeks ago. Fired it up. Everything’s working great. It’s super fast. It’s great. Yes. Right. And then a few days later, I left the studio. I was like 730. I was at an appointment with my son and I get a phone call from my building manager and he says,
Mandy York (01:57.103)
Wonderful. Yeah.
John Kozicki (02:16.63)
John, the restaurant upstairs, they were having some backup with the plumbing called the plumber. And the plumber stuck a camera down there to see what the blockage was. And he says that the internet company drilled right through the main sewer line when they were installing the internet.
Mandy York (02:42.882)
Gosh.
John Kozicki (02:43.394)
Yeah. And so he’s like, so we got to shut down the water. And at that point, you know, for me, it was 730. I was like, boy, I think we can, you know, we put it for us when it was a lot of water. It’s just the bathroom, really. So we put a sign on the bathroom out of order, you know, finish out the night. But the poor, there’s, you know that there are three restaurants in my building. There’s a salon in my building, right? So all these people that heavily rely on water.
Mandy York (02:55.96)
Right. Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (03:07.454)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (03:13.474)
So it’s this whole to do, right? It’s this huge problem. So then I get a text the next morning from the building manager and he says, they’re shutting down Main Street early this morning. They’re gonna dig up the street, but they should have it fixed later today.
Mandy York (03:35.567)
Yes, it is so crazy because when I drove into town, I saw that Main Street was closed down and then I get into work and I had like a text message and email from like the business association letting everybody know that part of Main Street. Little did I know it was John Kozicki that like created all this upheaval.
John Kozicki (03:42.891)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (03:50.132)
Yes.
John Kozicki (03:56.148)
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, roundabout way, kind of my fault, but all I wanted was faster internet, you know?
Mandy York (04:05.279)
my gosh. I can’t believe no one else in the building has like signed a contract with the new company yet. You’re the first one. You’re the first one.
John Kozicki (04:12.235)
Well, was the first one. I was the first one. And I’m guessing no one’s gonna want to now.
Mandy York (04:17.614)
No. Yeah, I think the street was closed all day. It was.
John Kozicki (04:22.689)
It was so again, I mean, I and I feel sort of bad about this, like, they got the water back on in the building. It was probably like 330 or so. And throughout the day, I was sort of monitoring like, okay, well, what do we do? Do we do we shut down for the day? They said it’s going to be you know, because we open in the afternoon, they said it’s going to be everything’s going to be fixed by that day. And then oh,
Mandy York (04:34.559)
okay.
John Kozicki (04:52.009)
is like kind of a gut punch. The restaurant owner who’s right above me, he also texted me in the morning. He’s like, hey buddy, you know, cause he’s got the restaurant upstairs and now he owns the restaurant across the street also. He’s like, hey buddy, you know, no, need for, for you to lose business. If any of your employees need to use the restroom, they can come across the street. He was that nice about it, you know? And I was just like, what? Meanwhile,
Mandy York (05:13.292)
Yeah. Yes. he was nice. He knew it was your fault and he was nice to you.
John Kozicki (05:20.609)
He didn’t know at the time. So yeah, meanwhile, he lost like business, you know, Tuesday night, he lost business or lunch service on Wednesday, you know, and yeah, like everything was back on for me by like 330 and no problem. ups and downs of business ownership, right? So but I didn’t get anything done that day, you know, once that happens, like trying to put out fires. Yeah, yeah.
Mandy York (05:29.009)
yeah.
Mandy York (05:32.948)
gosh.
Mandy York (05:41.953)
Yeah. Yep.
Right? I know that’s all you’re doing. Talk about all the different hats we wear. yeah. I’ve had flooding in my studio. We had, most recently I had like a light that was like strobing and just so bad. We, we did class without any lights on. We just turned them all off until you, stuff happens, right? You roll with it.
John Kozicki (05:52.713)
Right.
John Kozicki (06:01.929)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (06:07.361)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, it was me the whole time.
Mandy York (06:16.878)
That is so funny. I wish I had known.
John Kozicki (06:20.449)
So this this topic about employees or contractors, our music instructors, employees or contractors, this is hotly debated in the online groups I’ve seen. It’s always hotly debated. So I’m going to share my interpretation of it, but I’m going to put that like the disclaimer out there. I am not a tax attorney. I am not an accountant. So.
Mandy York (06:33.974)
Right. Yeah, I’ve seen that.
John Kozicki (06:49.907)
you know, don’t take my word for it. But I will say when I open my, yeah.
Mandy York (06:53.602)
Well, should say too, different, all different states have different laws on this too.
John Kozicki (06:59.233)
So well, they don’t necessarily have different laws as much as they’re like stricter or more lenient on enforcing this. Right. So I’m going to look at it from the end. I should say like for our international listeners, this is like kind of a U.S. thing. Our IRS sort of presents the laws here or the rules or the guidelines or whatever. So
Mandy York (07:09.717)
okay.
John Kozicki (07:29.341)
When I started my first music school and I got an accountant and started talking with him about how I run my business, he did question me about it. And I will say, when I started that first music school, I was paying my instructors as contractors. And when I was talking with him about it, he sort of questioned me. He’s like, yeah, are you sure?
Mandy York (07:59.087)
Hmm
John Kozicki (07:59.82)
And I like, well, yeah, that’s kind of the standard in this industry, right? Because everywhere I had ever taught before, I was paid as an independent contractor everywhere. And so I just kind of assumed like, yeah, well, that’s what it is. I didn’t actually consult a tax attorney. I didn’t even really look at like what the rules are. I was just like, well, yeah, when I was…
Mandy York (08:18.946)
how is.
John Kozicki (08:29.931)
teaching lessons, was paid as an independent contractor. isn’t that what it is, right? So it’s just kind of following what I had known. So now here’s the thing. Today, all of my instructors are employees. And I believe you’re the same, correct? Okay. So I’m going to get into what sort of the IRS looks at and
Mandy York (08:49.016)
Yep, I am. Yes, that’s correct.
John Kozicki (09:00.033)
than where I think this tradition comes from. But again,
This is not advice. More of a yes, yes. So have you ever looked into this?
Mandy York (09:10.734)
Right, disclaimer.
Mandy York (09:18.796)
Yeah, when I first started, when I was getting ready to hire, yes, I did. And I consulted with other directors, know, studio owners on it.
John Kozicki (09:22.635)
Okay.
John Kozicki (09:28.861)
Okay. All right. Yeah. And I have I mean, I’ve got a friend who’s a tax attorney for what it’s worth again, different states, different, you know, issues with how they’re going to pursue this or not. But so one of the things that the I’ll say, okay, the three things that the IRS looks at, they talk about behavioral control, financial control, and the relationship with the parties. So breaking each one of those down.
Behavioral control looks at whether the music school is dictating how the work gets done. So in your case, for instance, you have your instructors teaching a specific curriculum, right? So they’re, yeah, they’re not allowed to deviate from that.
Mandy York (10:16.408)
Yes. Yeah. So I’m heavily exactly. Yes. This there what they’re teaching is very specific and is directed by me and music together.
John Kozicki (10:23.146)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (10:31.944)
Right, right. So basically you as the business owner, you’re telling your instructors how to teach, what curriculum to follow, when to show up, right? So that’s one of the things that the IRS looks at in that relationship between employer and employee. Financial control.
Mandy York (10:45.772)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (11:01.236)
Financial control, does the instructor use their own equipment? Do they have business expenses of their own? Can they make a profit or take a loss based on how they manage their own work?
John Kozicki (11:21.052)
Again, I’m hesitant to get too in the weeds on interpreting that stuff. I can see when I was teaching and being paid as a contractor, I was working in a music store. And so I, instructed by my accountant at the time, I was tracking my mileage.
Like what expenses am I incurring to do this job? Now, I believe I was paid like, I don’t remember if I was paid per hour per lesson or something like that, but that would come into play, I think, in examining that relationship. Now, the third one is the relationship of the parties.
Is it project based? Are workers receiving any sort of benefits like health insurance or anything like that? Is the agreement ongoing, you know, and indefinite or is it for a specific amount of time? So I have a note here that says long term continuous working relationships or performing core business functions tend to look more like employment than independent contractors.
So, and this is not me. This is just, this is what the IRS looks at, right? I am merely repeating this stuff. Cause I know again, this might ruffle some feathers.
Mandy York (12:53.132)
Yes.
John Kozicki (13:05.311)
But.
And I don’t know how you feel about this, but like I don’t enjoy the whole taxes and IRS aspect of running a business, right? So the thought of like some technicality or something being flagged on my business and then I have to like do more of that type of work, ugh.
Mandy York (13:34.322)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. No. Yeah. And we’re, this is April 9. We’re recording this, right? So we’re like in the midst of tax season, you know? And I, no, I, I think there’s some functions I could do on my own as far as like the book keeping and such, but no, I hire that stuff out because it stresses me out and I want everything done perfectly. So.
John Kozicki (13:35.9)
Ugh.
John Kozicki (13:40.721)
yeah.
John Kozicki (13:52.704)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (14:01.155)
Same as you. I don’t want anything flagged. I don’t want any trouble or extra work.
John Kozicki (14:03.859)
Right. And because we’re hiring it out, if there ever is a problem, like our accountants sign on this, our returns too on our paperwork too, you know, they’re on there as well as we are. So they have to help fix things, so to speak. Now, this is the part that
Mandy York (14:16.056)
Yes.
Mandy York (14:24.34)
Exactly. Yeah.
John Kozicki (14:31.197)
I’m a little bit more interested in talking about which is where I think. like where does this come from? Like what? Cause in my mind.
It’s pretty clear with me how I run my music school. Like 100 % my instructors are employees, you know, because of how I run my music school. But I sort of see like looking back at younger John and opening his first music school, I do understand where this comes from. And I do see how they’re…
sort of was like maybe this precedent set. And it really depends on how individuals have their studio set up now, if that’s still kind of the model that works, or if it’s like, things have evolved to the point where that doesn’t work anymore. Do you me to just get into it? Or do you have any thoughts on it?
Mandy York (15:31.116)
Yeah, no, I’m curious. Yeah, let’s get into it. I want to hear what you have to say.
John Kozicki (15:35.103)
Okay, so let’s flash back to say, I don’t know, 1990. When did you take music lessons when you were a kid? Private music lessons. Yeah, I know you’re so much younger than I am.
Mandy York (15:46.156)
When? Like when did I start?
little bit. I started in 98 maybe 98 yeah mm-hmm okay
John Kozicki (15:59.36)
Okay, let’s flash back even a little bit more. it used to be, like I can say when I started taking music lessons, you took them at a music store. Or maybe like a private instructor in their house or something like that, right? Maybe. But if you’re going someplace to take music lessons, it was most likely a music store. Like I don’t remember.
I don’t remember anywhere when I first started taking music lessons, a music school that kind of looked like mine, where it’s like, this is what we do. We provide lessons.
Mandy York (16:38.988)
Yeah, totally. It was different.
John Kozicki (16:41.245)
Yeah, and so, and even where I took music lessons or guitar lessons to begin with was in a music store. So when you’ve got a music store, what is their primary business?
Mandy York (16:59.022)
selling instruments. Retail. Yeah.
John Kozicki (16:59.185)
It’s retail. Yeah, right. It’s retail. Yeah, exactly. It’s retail. So that’s what they do. And then also, people who come there to buy instruments, they’ll say, we have some rooms in the back where we have some music lessons that you can get to, right? But that’s not their primary business. And at the time,
And again, far be it from me to to know or understand how all the different music stores have things set up. But it’s pretty common for them to just say to get a person in there who, like, say, teaches guitar and like, OK, you can have this room on Tuesdays or you can have this room on like Thursdays and Fridays. Sometimes the store would take payment for those lessons and handle the schedule and then
pay out based on, you know, the lessons. Sometimes that was on the response. That was the responsibility of the instructor, right? So you can see where that relationship starts to look a little bit more like this contractor independent relationship. Yeah, yeah. And like not for nothing too, but it’s a pretty great deal for the store because they also have this instructor.
Mandy York (18:15.099)
Yes, totally.
John Kozicki (18:27.283)
who might say to a student, like, man, you really should get this book. You can buy it at the front desk. Or like, hey, you’re thinking about a new guitar? Let’s go out there and look at what other guitars there are. And so the music store, not only do they have this extra income coming in from lessons that they have to do pretty much nothing for.
Mandy York (18:34.287)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, Accessories.
John Kozicki (18:55.113)
but they also have this free sales person who now they don’t even have to pay a commission to, right? Because the instructor is selling instruments to the students. but like point being music stores main business is retail and the lessons were like something else. And so there was definitely a difference in
Mandy York (19:01.271)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (19:24.873)
how the instructors were paid versus say like their salespeople or front desk people or other people that work there. So I think that is where it comes from, right? But over the years, what’s happened is that there’s been less and less music retail stores. A lot of that stuff goes online.
but there’s still a huge demand for music lessons. And that’s where that shift starts to happen, where you start to see places that just offer music lessons and sometimes maybe a little bit of retail or maybe no retail at all, like a lot of places. Yeah. And then…
Mandy York (20:08.77)
Yeah, like what you’re doing.
John Kozicki (20:15.23)
And I can speak for myself. I mean, like because that is my business, I’m not really concerned about like the quality of the lesson experience, right? So I have a lot of things in place where, okay, this is what I need my instructors to do. This is how I need them to operate. You know, we’ve got certain curriculum that we use. So that starts to look a lot less like that.
that contract or relationship where the instructor in the back is just kind of doing whatever they want and the store owner is like, all right, that’s fine, whatever.
Mandy York (20:49.614)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. I had not thought about that before. Kind of that history of how things have evolved. It makes a lot of sense.
John Kozicki (21:00.83)
So again, so I see how.
that can carry over. And you can, you know, you can maybe think like, like I did. Well, I was paid as an independent contractor because I started teaching in stores. Right. Yeah. But I think as things evolved, it definitely, definitely changes. So I think I think there’s still room for it. You know, I think you still like you can still have a music school and still
Mandy York (21:20.472)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (21:36.838)
have contractors. But I do think it’s important to sort of look at that relationship and decide.
what is this situation? know? Yeah. Cause I don’t, I don’t think I want to tangle with the IRS on something like this.
Mandy York (21:48.398)
Really? Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah.
Mandy York (21:59.119)
Absolutely not. No, no. I think maybe, what do you think in having employers, having employees as employers instead of private contractors kind of feeds into the culture that you create too, right? Feeling more like, we’ve talked a lot about how important it is that we
John Kozicki (22:19.549)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (22:29.034)
are training our instructors in a specific way to preserve the culture of our studio, right? So we’re being very specific with them. I think having them as employees makes that relationship very clear. And I feel like I very much feel like we have a good team and we’re all on the same page. A private contractor, like you said, there’s room for that.
John Kozicki (22:35.56)
Yeah.
Mandy York (22:56.352)
It makes sense in some cases, but to me, a private contractor is, you know, doing things in their own way, right? Teaching in their own way. So.
John Kozicki (23:04.958)
Sure, Well, and yeah, like 100%, I could never, like by these guidelines, right? I have to have my instructors interacting in order for my band program to work, right? I have to have that relationship supported. I have to have them all communicating and that…
Mandy York (23:19.832)
Yeah. Yep.
John Kozicki (23:34.449)
just by design is not independent. You know, like if I need these bands to function the way that they’re supposed to, well then the one instructor who is coaching the bands has to be able to work with the instructors of each one of those kids in their private lessons to make sure that we’re all reaching the goals. So by design it just
Mandy York (23:38.474)
Mm-hmm. Exactly. Yeah.
John Kozicki (24:04.316)
Like for me, just wouldn’t.
Yeah. Now, this is I’m going to tread lightly again here too. So I mean, cases for setting your studio up for as like an independent contractor studio. I mean, number one, there’d have to be an actual contract like like a written like this is what I’m doing. This is what you’re doing. This is your responsibilities. These are my responsibilities.
So that agreement has to be in. I don’t, and I’ll be completely honest about this one, I don’t know how liability insurance might work in those situations.
Mandy York (24:54.19)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (24:55.582)
I mean, I know how it works in my situation because my insurance guy told me this is what you need. But, you know, I would I would want to look into that like pretty closely because it seems like if
Mandy York (25:03.018)
Exactly. Yeah.
John Kozicki (25:18.758)
Again, trading lightly, consult experts. I’m not an expert, but if you’ve got someone working for you independently and working with kids, I sort of feel like they might have to carry their own liability insurance in addition to whatever like me as the studio owner was carrying. I’m not sure. And maybe someone who does have their studio set up like this.
Mandy York (25:39.63)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (25:47.698)
would know better than I would. I’m not sure. I welcome feedback on that because I just don’t know. And then I think it goes without saying background checks. you know, yeah, we did that anyway. What a weird, boring topic, right?
Mandy York (26:01.154)
Always,
Mandy York (26:08.236)
Yeah. Yes, you’re right though. It is debated all the time. You know, yeah.
John Kozicki (26:14.685)
It is. But it does make me wonder, like, is it?
Is it debated? Is the debate like a valid debate, right? Based on how people have their studio set up or is this, is it debate based on like this history that I was talking about? You know, cause things evolve, things change. I don’t, I don’t know the answer. I really don’t.
Mandy York (26:41.538)
I think the example you gave was really interesting. Like I said, I hadn’t thought about that before, the way it’s evolved.
John Kozicki (26:47.281)
There are other industries that I think deal with this same thing. I don’t know anyone who runs a dance school, but…
I know when my wife used to dance when she was younger and I think she said her sister taught at the dance school and similarly was paid as an independent contractor. My daughter now works at as a teacher at a gymnastics gym. She’s paid as an employee.
So, you know, I think there’s other industries that deal with this. I’m not sure. Again, just kind of guessing. I’m just looking at it like how did this happen in the lesson world?
John Kozicki (27:48.582)
You liked my story about the Internet better, didn’t you? Right. Keep it. Keep it light. Yeah, yeah, I’m hesitant now to even ask for ratings and reviews on this one. Rate my story about the Internet. Give me a review about that.
Mandy York (27:48.815)
Yep. I did. That’s why we included it here. A fun story. then, yeah. Yes.
Mandy York (28:09.099)
No.
Yes, exactly. But also, hey, give us the feedback on on this topic, though, if we’ve missed something like we love to get that feedback and.
John Kozicki (28:20.829)
for sure.
If I’m wrong, I will totally admit it, right? 100%. And yeah, but this is, you know, this is just my interpretation. This is what like I know works for me. This is my understanding based on like the professionals that I have talked to. But again, disclaimer, I’m not a professional. Yeah.
Mandy York (28:30.07)
Sure. Yeah. Tell us why.
Mandy York (28:47.436)
Yeah, yep. Yeah, and bottom line is we do all kind of run things differently and it’s important to talk to your, yeah, your tax accountant.
John Kozicki (28:57.401)
Mm hmm. Yes. 100 %
Mandy York (28:59.16)
Get some professional advice on this stuff. Don’t mess with the IRS, guys, don’t. No, don’t do that. Yeah.
John Kozicki (29:03.05)
no, don’t. It’s like a losing battle.
Yeah, business taxes are done, personal taxes, they’re on extension. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep.
Mandy York (29:13.144)
Did you get your taxes done, John?
Mandy York (29:17.71)
Excellent. yeah. My first three years with the business, I filed an extension every year. It was just too overwhelming. I got the hang of it now. Yeah. I hate to, I know, right? Okay. That was fun.
John Kozicki (29:26.343)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
John Kozicki (29:31.837)
I hate talking about this. All right, well, let’s, no, it wasn’t. Let’s wrap this one up then and we’ll see you next time.
Mandy York (29:40.022)
Now it’s done.
Mandy York (29:44.652)
Yeah, thanks, Jen. See ya.
