In this episode, John Kozicki (Michigan Rock School and RockSchoolProprietor.com) and Mandy York (Music Time of Milford) share two of their latest book recommendations for private music instructors and lesson studio owners to grow their business.
Mandy’s pick: Play: How it Shapes the Brain, Opens the Imagination, and Invigorates the Soul by Stuart Brown, and as the extended title suggests, all the benefits of play-based learning.
John’s pick: The Infinite Game by Simon Sinek, which examines the concept of viewing your business as not a game to be won or lost, but something to play indefinitely — an infinite game.
Both books that approach growth, learning, and long-term thinking from different angles but land in surprisingly similar places. The conversation connects both books to the day-to-day reality of running a music school and makes a case for why the ideas inside them are worth your time as an instructor or lesson studio owner.
In this episode:
- Why play is not just for kids, and how it drives creativity, resilience, and emotional development at every age.
- What Stuart Brown’s research reveals about the role of play in learning and how it applies directly to music education.
- Simon Sinek’s concept of the infinite game and why running a music school with no defined finish line is actually a strength, not a problem.
- How play strengthens relationships between students, parents, and teachers.
- How the infinite game mindset shifts the way you think about growth, competition, and success in your studio.
- Why integrating play into your teaching and your business culture fosters the kind of engagement that lasts.
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Episode Transcript:
John Kozicki (00:01.141)
Welcome to Rock School Proprietor Podcast. My name is John Kozicki.
Mandy York (00:05.772)
and I’m Mandi York.
John Kozicki (00:08.065)
Mandy, remember when we did book club last year? An episode, yeah, book club episode. Yeah, it was a popular one. So we decided to do it again.
Mandy York (00:11.054)
I love book club. Uh huh.
Mandy York (00:21.218)
I, yes, I’m excited for this.
John Kozicki (00:24.547)
Do you do audiobooks? Like I mostly do audiobooks now.
Mandy York (00:30.19)
I do. love a good audio book, I’m maybe not quite 50 50 60 40. I read a little bit more with my physical books than listen. Cause I do like to sit.
John Kozicki (00:44.493)
feel like the only yeah, I feel like the only times really I have to actually read aside from maybe on the weekends or like when I’m on vacation, that’s the exception is in the evenings before bed. But I immediately just pass out if I start reading.
Mandy York (01:06.222)
That’s really funny. People are different. My husband is that way. He will fall asleep with a book on his chest. I will not be able to sleep. I really need to get to sleep, I got to get up early or whatever it may be, I cannot read the night before because, especially if I’m really into the book, I’ve been known to stay up till two o’clock reading, just in it.
John Kozicki (01:11.075)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (01:28.831)
Interesting. My wife reads right before bed. But yeah, if I if I pick up a book and I’ll just like if it’s I would say if it’s after like nine, nine p.m. I start dozing off, you know, it’s wild. So, this is not related to the books, but I wanted to I wanted to mention maybe a plea to our listeners for to.
Mandy York (01:44.558)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes.
John Kozicki (01:56.654)
We need some reviews. We need some reviews and some ratings on the podcast. Apple Podcast and Spotify. And we’ve got a little blurb here at the end of every podcast that suggests it, but you and I, do the show for our listeners to help them and to elevate the industry. And we’re not monetizing this show at all. We’re not, we don’t have sponsors.
Mandy York (02:00.142)
Yeah, yes.
John Kozicki (02:26.581)
So all we ask, right, is 30 seconds. Go rate it. You know, give us a five star, hopefully. Quick review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify would be awesome.
Mandy York (02:40.172)
Yep. It helps other people find us and, and that’s what it’s all about. mean, I love listening to other studio owners and teachers out there. So give us the rating, share it, and maybe some of this content will be useful to somebody else.
John Kozicki (02:50.551)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (02:56.541)
sure. Okay, so on to book club. If this is something that listeners are into, was episode 38 was our last book club episode. And I think we’re going to have kind of a similar format here. Like, if I remember correctly, your book last time was a music related book. think mine was
Mandy York (03:22.136)
Yes. Yes.
John Kozicki (03:26.753)
Mine was actually a learning book. was Hidden Potential by Adam Grant was my book last time. What was yours the last time? It was a collection of writings, right?
Mandy York (03:31.328)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Mandy York (03:36.27)
Yes. that’s right. I’m sorry. Of Music and Mind. Yes. Music and Mind. You did. I know. I totally blanked for a second. Yeah. Music and Mind. It was a collection of essays. Yeah.
John Kozicki (03:43.733)
I put you on the spot. Sorry. Yeah.
Mm hmm. But today, similar you are going to talk about a book on play based learning, right? It’s called Is it is it called?
Mandy York (04:02.946)
Yeah. The importance. Well, it’s called play. It’s just called play. How it shapes the brain, opens the imagination and invigorates the soul. How’s that for a title? Stuart Brown. Yeah.
John Kozicki (04:09.068)
Okay.
John Kozicki (04:15.521)
Hmm. And who’s the author? Yeah. Okay. My book is the infinite game by Simon Sinek. So I am I’m a fan of Simon Sinek. I I’m pretty regular listener of his podcast. And I’ve read a few of his books and I’ll get into that a little bit more. But why don’t we why don’t we start with yours? Play.
Mandy York (04:24.886)
I know you’re a big Simon Sinek fan.
Mandy York (04:44.418)
Yeah, play. I was excited about this book. I’ve had it for a long time. I picked it up several times and glad to get through the whole thing finally. It’s not specifically about music. It’s not even really specifically about learning. But it was on my list because of the work that I do in early childhood, specifically in early childhood. We learn through play, right? That’s what I’m telling my parents all the time.
John Kozicki (04:59.917)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (05:12.055)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (05:13.72)
Play-based learning, immersing the kids in music every week. This is not formal instruction, it’s very informal instruction, right? And this book is interesting. There is a section on early childhood, but it’s also talking about play being essential for learning creativity and emotional development.
for everyone. This isn’t just for kids, it’s for adults too, right? And I’m able to use it in what I do with the kids, but I just think musicians in general, right? We play music, right? We play our instruments, we play music together, we play together. We don’t talk about, you know,
John Kozicki (05:44.557)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (06:02.882)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (06:11.83)
What would you even say? I’m going to use my trombone. I’m going to go use my guitar right now. We play, right? Yes. There’s so many benefits of play. Stuart Brown spends a lot of time. mean, it’s an interesting read. He spends a lot of time digging into the animal kingdom, actually, and how
John Kozicki (06:18.55)
Yeah.
Mandy York (06:40.786)
animals play. It’s actually something it’s like a biological necessity for all of us. Play is actually more something we really need in our lives emotionally. When we when we play learning learning really sticks. When we’re in play we’re in a mode where learning can really stick.
John Kozicki (07:03.127)
Hmm.
Mandy York (07:09.592)
That’s why you know teachers, like really creative and fun teachers, kind of play-based teachers, use music in their classroom, games, right? Stuff like that. If you think back to elementary, high school, there’s certain lessons I’m sure that we all can think back to that affected us, that really stuck with us, to use that term again, because they were more playful. Right? Yeah.
John Kozicki (07:15.306)
Mmm, yeah.
John Kozicki (07:30.465)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (07:35.715)
Yes, you’re so right. Can I interject something? I remember my fifth grade school year, my teacher was Mr. Brown. His class was so fun because part of the class was like, it seems wild to even think about this now, but like once per week, two of the kids in the class, we get to bake bread in the class and then we sell it to like,
Mandy York (07:40.3)
Totally, yeah.
Mandy York (07:46.563)
Mm-hmm
John Kozicki (08:05.566)
sell it to the other kids in the school, right? So kids knew to come to his classroom and buy bread on that day. And then we could also get like, we have these series of points and we would get like, like they translated into money and we learned how to write checks in that class because he had a little store. And with the points that you had, you could write a check and buy like little projects or you could buy like cupcakes. So you could bake cupcakes and like,
Mandy York (08:09.25)
Yeah.
Mandy York (08:23.042)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (08:35.808)
The entire, that’s all I remember about that class. Like this microcosm of playing like you’re an adult. It was incredible.
Mandy York (08:38.668)
Yeah.
Mandy York (08:44.468)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah, that’s, that’s what he’s talking about here. He gives an example of in the book about a middle or high school teacher, how he taught about the migration patterns of mallards of ducks and how he did that. you know, interviewing the, and the adult that like could tell you all of these details about the migration patterns. He will never forget it because of the way it was taught by his teacher. Yeah.
John Kozicki (08:57.919)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mandy York (09:14.056)
and it play builds creativity, right? so we’re, kids that play are
John Kozicki (09:19.233)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (09:28.78)
when we play and play is defined as like freely chosen, right? This isn’t like adult led or adult supervised regulated activities, more of like free play, right? Free play allows kids to be creative, to explore, to make mistakes, right? So a lot of the research that he’s done shows that
John Kozicki (09:41.761)
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
John Kozicki (09:49.451)
Mm, yeah.
Mandy York (09:57.472)
Engineers, for example, he uses like engineers from I’m pretty sure Caltech. Those that played and used their hands and explored as children were better at problem solving as adults in the field than those that just had theoretical experience. So actually using their hands playing. In my world, we talk about play strengthening relationships.
So, or Brown does, Brown talks about how play can strengthen relationships. With my parents, I talk about attunement. Attunement is a phase around three months old where babies and their caregiver, it’s a bonding experience, attunement, where eyes meet, the baby has a reaction, like a smile, caregivers talk in a funny, you know, baby voice. It’s a thing where the brains sync up.
And when you’re playing in that way, you’re creating, you’re strengthening bonds. So play is all of these like real, physiological and brain building benefits to it.
John Kozicki (11:16.268)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (11:20.552)
here’s what I was thinking about though as I went through it. You’ll have to read the book if you want all of the research and all of the fun details. I was thinking about a friend of mine who is right now struggling with a music teacher, struggling with retention and kind of stressed about retention of his students, music students, which
listeners. We’ve talked about this before, right? And how
John Kozicki (11:51.095)
Yeah.
Mandy York (11:57.967)
and the stress that that’s bringing and into the lessons and into the classroom. And I had immediately thought, well, what about bringing play back in? Like you’re not playing right now, right? You’re getting bogged down in the details and the stress of what’s happening. Do instructors need to remember to play to avoid
burnout and to keep their students engaged, right? We’ve recently talked about, about having fun, keeping music lessons fun, remember, and trying to define that word. So I was reading too, and I thought, you know, well, maybe music lessons need to be more playful. Maybe we can replace the word fun with playful.
John Kozicki (12:29.089)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (12:50.401)
You
John Kozicki (12:55.167)
Yeah, we have talked about how I think instructors often will put so much pressure on themselves to always be teaching, right? Or to always make sure the students are learning. And it becomes very academic. And we miss that aspect of, they can learn if we’re just kind of having fun and playing, too.
Mandy York (13:07.64)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (13:21.314)
Yes, definitely. talks about, Stuart Brown talks about play is not the opposite of work.
John Kozicki (13:34.665)
Okay, same, say more, say more about that.
Mandy York (13:35.214)
play is not the opposite of work, right? Because I think that’s something that we think, that we assume, right? If I’m at work, I am not playing. Exactly. Yes, yes. Work hard to play hard. We’ve got all kinds of, you know, sayings around that. But it is not the opposite of work and that we can have fun and we need to find
John Kozicki (13:45.377)
Yeah, all work, no play makes Jack a dull boy, right? So yeah.
John Kozicki (13:56.095)
Right.
Mandy York (14:05.014)
fun and playfulness, playfulness in our work.
John Kozicki (14:08.705)
Mmm, I love that.
Mandy York (14:11.758)
I think that applies to us as music teachers, you know, a lot. I feel fortunate. My, you know, my teaching is based in play, right? So perhaps this is a little bit different than a multi-teacher private lesson studio, maybe, but
John Kozicki (14:30.047)
Yeah, because no one’s going to ask you why those babies aren’t learning to read music.
Mandy York (14:34.442)
Yes, exactly. Exactly. So I do go in to work and I like, if I feel like I’m having fun, I’m doing my job, right? I’m sorry, I need to stop using the word fun play. If I feel like I’m really playing and being very playful, I’m doing my job, right? I’m play builds connections, like I said, not just with those caregiver and child, but you know, when
John Kozicki (14:46.017)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (15:01.534)
Kids, toddlers think that I’m their best friend. Some of them, right? They do. And I know that teenagers make strong connections with their instructors also. Like it is the eye contact. It is the playing back and forth that, builds those bonds. That’s exciting. And so when you are in that state, the learning is sticking the learning sticks. So with my older kids,
John Kozicki (15:04.929)
That’s awesome.
John Kozicki (15:11.529)
Yeah, yeah.
John Kozicki (15:19.263)
Mmm. You’re right.
Mandy York (15:31.118)
We are still playing and having fun. Again, when I say older, I’m meaning kindergarten through second grade. In that setting, it’s more games. Those classes are more formal than my early childhood, my younger toddlers, but it’s game based. And it is passing the baton, so to speak, to some of those other kids and saying, okay, now you lead us in some rhythm patterns.
John Kozicki (15:36.545)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (15:42.433)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (16:00.696)
Can you improvise some rhythm? know, giving them license to be creative and lead all of us. And it is not only me as a teacher in the room dictating every move that the kids make, but playing back and forth, you know, with those, with the songs and the games. It’s a, we’re working together instead of just a teacher.
John Kozicki (16:01.023)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (16:29.846)
and student relationship, right?
John Kozicki (16:32.895)
Yeah, yeah, it’s less of a here’s a lecture and you’re going to tow the line and do what I say and more about we’re going to work on this project together. We’re going to do this thing together. Yeah, it makes perfect sense, right? Perfect sense.
Mandy York (16:43.8)
together. Yep.
Yeah, that is, it’s, it’s a really interesting book. just think it’s, um, a, a good reminder, you know, about how, how people learn what the benefits of play are. Um, I’ll do like a little side tangent here too. I don’t know if we talked about, uh, you and I maybe offline, um, Jonathan Heights book, the anxious generation.
John Kozicki (17:17.717)
Yes, yeah, haven’t read that one yet, but I’ve read, what’s the one about? Yeah, something about like why good people are divided on moral issues. We shouldn’t get into that one. Yeah, the righteous mind, the righteous mind, yeah.
Mandy York (17:17.922)
I mean, there’s a lot of buzz out there.
I haven’t read that one.
Mandy York (17:27.768)
Poe’s earlier book?
Mandy York (17:35.808)
Yeah, is something. It’s about that. Yeah. that’s a, the, the righteous mind. That’s the one. Yeah. the anxious generation. There’s a lot of buzz about that right now. And, I saw some parallels with his work and, Stuart Brown, Stuart Brown borns against, overbooking our kids in adult organized and adult regulated activities. Right.
John Kozicki (17:46.891)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (18:02.879)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (18:06.978)
like Jonathan Haidt is very into like a play-based childhood, right? And so all of these adult regulated structured activities can keep creativity out, right? They’re not play-based child led. The thing about music classes and lessons is that, you know, if we are creating a really
great play-based environment, you’ve got that. But then it’s also going home. You know, like my hope, my goal is that all of this playfulness and this learning through play is going home too, right? To continue there. So while we are, these are organized, structured weekly classes, it’s very play-based and it continues outside of the classroom. And I would think
John Kozicki (18:40.33)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (18:51.23)
Yeah.
Mandy York (19:06.156)
as I’m trying to relate this to the older kids too, that’s the same. My daughter goes in for her rock band rehearsal and her guitar lessons. And then, you know, I’ll just hear her noodling around on her guitar or playing through a song in her bedroom, right? These are such great things for our kids. As they get older and as they are, you’ve got a 16 year old, John.
John Kozicki (19:24.095)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (19:35.692)
Like life becomes busier and more structured. The demands on kids are so much more than they used to be. So much more. Brown talks about this in the book too. So one can argue or say like, there’s no time for fun. Like that’s really great if you have this luxury to spend time, you know?
John Kozicki (19:45.192)
Yeah, for sure.
Mandy York (20:05.358)
frivolously having fun, like good for you. But no, it’s actually important. It’s not, it’s not a nice to have. It’s, it’s something that we all really need. So if just in our world, for example, we’re bringing them up in music and giving them these tools, these instruments that, that, that they can use in between, surgeries.
John Kozicki (20:05.45)
Yeah.
Mandy York (20:35.446)
as an adult, you know what I mean? High stress jobs, you know, after the PSAT to blow off some steam.
John Kozicki (20:36.192)
Right? Yeah, I think it’s encouraging. It’s, it’s encouraging problem solving in like different and creative ways as opposed to linear thinking, maybe. So this is, it’s really interesting because your book is almost the perfect setup for my book. Now that I’m thinking about it. Yeah.
Mandy York (21:03.742)
really? That’s cool. Okay.
John Kozicki (21:06.302)
Like if I won’t go into mine yet if you have more to say about yours, but if like, did you have more to say?
Mandy York (21:13.73)
Well, you know, just along these lines of what we’re giving our kids now and how it will benefit them in the future. You know, I joke about, my daughter growing up to be a surgeon, but having, you know, music in her that she also pulls out from time to time. I like as musicians, it is our job and it is, it’s our work. It’s,
We’ve spent a lot of time in the practice room, a lot of time studying, lot of time honing our skills as music teachers, right? That I think sometimes the playfulness, it doesn’t seem like play as much as it used to. Does that make sense to you? I’ve had these conversations with other
John Kozicki (21:58.518)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (22:12.032)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (22:14.28)
performers, I think, especially, but.
I don’t know if this is silly, but I just think, I don’t know that my kids are going to, you know, major in music as my husband and I did, but it kind of excites me to know that they will like have other passions and like whole well-rounded lives that include music.
John Kozicki (22:31.198)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mandy York (22:47.778)
That’s just it. It’s not something I.
Mandy York (22:53.676)
Music is just a really big piece of my pie. you know, to ha- and I think, I remember in school, like, kind of wondering at music minors, like they did all these other things, but then they would come in and to the music building for, you know, an ensemble rehearsal or, you know, music lit, something like that. And I just always thought that was-
John Kozicki (22:56.949)
Yes.
John Kozicki (23:15.892)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (23:22.018)
That was really cool. Is that weird? Do you know what I’m saying? Like for
John Kozicki (23:24.288)
Well, I didn’t I didn’t go to music school, so I was the weird one. Like I was your perspective, you know.
Mandy York (23:29.662)
Well, yes, you are, you’re more like that because you had, you had a career and you you did other things, but music, music was still like really important and a piece of what you did. wasn’t the everything like it is for my husband and I. So I don’t know. I, that excites me to be able to give that to, to kids, to students. Yeah.
John Kozicki (23:37.024)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (23:42.772)
Yes.
John Kozicki (23:48.404)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (23:57.312)
Well, so this is, think this is going to make perfect sense. Like why I mentioned, this is almost the perfect setup. So when we talked about doing this, this book club episode again, I like, haven’t read any books that I felt as of late, I haven’t read any books that I felt like, man, this would be a great one to talk about. I’ve read some books that I felt were good, but they don’t necessarily apply here. And I’ve read a couple of business books recently and I was like,
They’re OK. Nothing. Nothing that I felt like I would recommend. So what I had to do was go back to a book that really made an impact on me that I read maybe two or three years ago, which is The Infinite Game by Simon Sinek. So some of these details might be a little bit fuzzy. I tried my best to to write some notes, but because I read it a few years ago,
But it was impactful. I had previously read Start With Why. Have you read any Simon Sinek? I don’t think you have, you? Okay.
Mandy York (25:03.99)
No I haven’t. I start with Y’s on my list, but yeah, have not read any yet.
John Kozicki (25:08.639)
Well, so I read Start with Why and I really enjoyed it. It kind of left a couple, I don’t want to say questions, a better way to say it is when I read the Infinite Game, it’s sort of shone a light, shined a light on questions maybe I didn’t really notice I had about Start with Why. Start with Why is about like, well, what is your
What’s your why for existing in business? Like what is your you know, what is your purpose in your business? The infinite game is based on another author James Carson’s book finite and infinite games and he’s more of a philosopher. But finite infinite games is about like well, what is the difference between playing a game that is finite and
What is a game that is infinite? So I better reference my notes on this one. And this is where I think it’s going to relate to what you were talking about about play. So finite games have rules, define players, a winner and a loser and an end. Infinite games have no finish line. The goal isn’t to win, it’s to keep playing. So that to me, what that is, well, that’s learning music.
You don’t, you know, you never, you never win learning music, right? I think there can be in music, there can be finite games, but like music as a whole is an infinite game. So like, you can say, I am going to learn how to play this piece of music perfectly. That is if that is a finite game, right? So when you’re playing, you’re figuring out, okay, how do I have to fine tune this until I can do it? Whereas once that’s done, it’s like, well, where do I want to go next?
So the world is at your fingertips, right? What do want to do?
John Kozicki (27:16.977)
The concept of the infinite game, I think, related to…
It, Cynic framed it about business.
If because there’s really no there’s no winning and losing in business either, right? But he he makes a point that yeah, yeah, that’s the idea. You want to continue to like grow your business and you want to continue to like expand and so that it can go on. But his argument is that a lot of businesses play it more like a finite game. Like I want to beat this number at this on this quarter. I want to be the best in this. These are my competition.
Mandy York (27:35.81)
You want to stay in the game. Yeah.
John Kozicki (28:00.305)
But I see, because I see a clear parallel between how music and learning music is an infinite game. I also can see how we can approach our businesses as infinite games too, because if we’re just sort of expressing that to our clients, then our business becomes an extension of what we do for them.
if that makes sense.
So this is why I thought like, wow, that’s really weird that this is sort of an extension of of your book. so I’m going to reference a couple of things that were in, the book. And this is from my notes. So in the infinite game, cynics says there’s five practices for playing an infinite game. One is having a just cause, which is a vision so compelling people would sacrifice for it.
So that’s kind of your big picture why. So you can have your why, why your business exists. But that’s the thing that even goes beyond the why. What is the philosophical purpose of what we’re doing? For my business, for instance, I think, well, everyone should be playing music.
Mandy York (29:22.638)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (29:31.537)
everyone like who comes to the studio should experience playing music with other people. And that’s why the business exists. But like the just cause, why should everyone play music? Well, because it’s going to make the world a better place if everyone can like.
Okay, so I have to rephrase what I wanted to say. If everyone can just drop their baggage and and like embrace that, then like, you know, how much better with the entire world be? But like the thing with the just cause is it’s like, it’s almost like this goal that you can never actually attain. Right? It’s just this pursuit that’s so noble.
Mandy York (29:52.938)
Yes. Yes!
haha
John Kozicki (30:23.462)
that you pursue it because you know it’s right. So anyway, Infinite Games have a just cause. it builds trusting teams. Three, it’s about studying your worthy rivals. So your competitors you learn from rather than you just try to beat them. Four, having the courage to lead. So making hard long-term calls.
So sometimes, you know, what’s right for, say, the business might not be right for every person in it, maybe even yourself. And then five is maintaining a flexible playbook. It’s a willingness to adapt how you pursue the cause. You’re basically like your environment’s going to change. You have no control over that. So.
a willingness to adapt what you’re doing to ebb and flow with whatever else is happening in the world. COVID, for instance, mean, sad, but I know some I know some studio owners who just threw in the towel. You know?
Mandy York (31:43.034)
yeah, yep, me too. Mm-hmm, yeah. You’re right, we have no control over what’s going on. mean, technology, there’s lots of different factors. Who knows what’s gonna come next?
John Kozicki (31:53.713)
Yes.
Right, right. So what I wanted to kind of dig into a little bit deeper though was that number three, worthy rivals. Only because…
And I didn’t really think about this until I was reviewing my notes, but the whole worthy rivals lesson, we did an episode, shoot, I had a reference number for it, episode, what was it?
64. Do remember when I talked about that competitor that moved into town at my first music school and I didn’t handle it well?
Mandy York (32:34.51)
Yeah.
Mandy York (32:39.006)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I remember. Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (32:43.068)
Yeah, I approach that more like a finite game. Like I have to beat this guy who’s moving into town near my studio. I have to be better than them. And I got so hyper fixated on what he was doing. And I kind of lost focus on what I should have been doing.
So in terms of like these five practices in the Infinite Game, I blew it, right? Because I should instead should have been thinking about this competitor as a worthy rival. What are they doing that I could learn from? So that then I can adapt what I’m doing rather than, you know, seeing them as a threat and getting all weird, which I did. So I definitely recommend.
going back and listening to episode 64 where I sort of air my dirty laundry on that one. But.
Mandy York (33:43.778)
you
John Kozicki (33:49.457)
Yeah, so the the word the rival piece in retrospect now when I looked back at my notes from from reading the infinite game. Had I read it then would it would have sunk in and what I’ve changed my mind? I don’t know. But I definitely was not thinking of that guy in terms of. Someone I could learn from.
Now I’ve got one more point which is kind going back to that idea of the just cause and it’s almost like again the ultimate why. Let’s see and I’m going to read part of my notes here. Cynic says a clear just cause is what keeps you from falling into finite thinking in the first place.
This is one that’s I think it’s like you have to wrap your brain around this concept. What you know what is finite thinking and what is is infinite thinking. And this is where it also gets really philosophical. But it’s basically a vision for the future that doesn’t yet exist. And that again goes back to what I was saying about well why should everyone play music. Right. Because.
Well, the more people who play music and the more people who really embrace what this is all about, well, then they’re more connected to arts and they’re more connected to what it is to be human. And then they’re more connected to one another and they seem like, you know, it’s all peace and love and touchy feely, you know, but it’s, it’s yeah, yeah. And, and the idea it’s, it’s like, again, it’s
Mandy York (35:32.842)
Yeah, yeah, but, but real.
John Kozicki (35:43.292)
I think there’s some…
there’s some leaps of faith involved because if it can never be fully achieved.
You know, it’s like, you have to just accept like, all right, I am, I’m going to pursue this, but even if I don’t achieve it, well, the strides that I make are going to be better than if I didn’t, right? So you kind of have to accept like, might not achieve this goal, or I probably won’t achieve this goal. It makes me think of, you’ve been to Europe, right?
Mandy York (36:12.802)
Yeah.
Mandy York (36:22.925)
I have not.
John Kozicki (36:24.158)
Oh, you haven’t been to Europe? thought, okay, sorry. All right. Um, so when I was in France, these massive cathedrals, right? That take, that took like hundreds of years to build or a hundred years, right? So it makes me think about someone who, you know, maybe they’re 18, 16, I don’t know. And they’re like, okay, my job is to
Mandy York (36:26.392)
No, I haven’t traveled abroad.
Mandy York (36:32.942)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (36:48.87)
work on building this cathedral and they literally could work on building it their entire lives and never finish because it took that long to Right. And that that takes a lot of faith. So anyway, thoughts on that on how my book sort of dovetails against yours.
Mandy York (36:55.672)
Yeah, yep.
Mandy York (37:13.73)
Yeah, I love that. It, it, but you just said, felt like so noble. just, yeah. Yeah. Very cool. Say the.
John Kozicki (37:19.998)
Well, it’s one thing to say it. I think it’s another thing to actually live it. But yeah.
But I do see the parallels. yeah, the title. The title is the infinite game. Yeah. But again, I do see those parallels between your book, Play, and my book because the overarching theme with both of them is this isn’t about winning or losing. This is about doing it because
Mandy York (37:32.408)
Yeah, infinite game. Okay.
John Kozicki (37:58.302)
what we’re going to gain from just doing it is gonna make us better.
Mandy York (38:06.306)
Yeah, kind of like for its own sake, right? Play for its own sake, right? Music for its own sake. Not necessarily to accomplish X, Y and Z specifically, but the overarching grander ideas of doing it. Yeah.
John Kozicki (38:24.808)
Yes. Yes. Cool. Well, I think I’m gonna read your book. I’m gonna read that one.
Mandy York (38:33.394)
I really love this book. really, really enjoyed it, you guys. And I should say too, like, it’s full of research and science, which, you know, I love all that stuff. I should say too, like, I’m, I mean, I’m kind of a serious person. I’m kind of serious. You know, I’m serious about my kids. I’m serious about my work. This isn’t like, this isn’t a silly book. It’s like play is kind of.
John Kozicki (38:45.608)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (38:51.752)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (39:02.286)
Play can be kind of serious, you know? It’s… We seriously need to play, so… And it’s not a long read. It’s not too long. It’s… Go for it. You can do it. You’ll enjoy it.
John Kozicki (39:03.934)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (39:16.446)
I think this, I don’t remember, but I think the Infinite Game also, not especially long. But I also would recommend Finite and Infinite Games by James Kars, which is, they’re sort of almost companion pieces, kind of. All right, well, so that’ll do it for this episode. So we’ll see you next time. All right, bye.
Mandy York (39:32.302)
Cool. All right.
Mandy York (39:38.85)
Thanks, Sean. See ya. Bye.
