In this episode of the Rock School Proprietor Podcast, host John Kozicki (Michigan Rock School and RockSchoolProprietor.com) delves into effective teaching strategies for neurodiverse students with guest Becki Laurent (The Music Studio – Lubbock, TX, Simply Piano), a respected music studio owner and educator. Becky shares her unique insights into teaching neurodivergent children by embracing her own ADHD as an advantage in the classroom. The discussion provides practical techniques that not only benefit those teaching neurodiverse students but also enhance teaching methods for all learners by understanding brain development and neuroplasticity.
In this episode:
- Becki shares how her own journey with ADHD has proved to be a superpower in her professional life, and how she leverages that knowledge when working with neurodiverse students
- How the umbrella term of “neurodiverse” can also present challenges in understanding difference in diagnosis like ADHA, autism, dyslexia, and more
- Practical techniques music instructors can use in lessons with neurodiverse learners
- Becki offers her top three tips for instructors to feel more confident when teaching neurodiverse students
- How the core aspects we discuss center on brain development and neuroplasticity, and can make you a better teacher with any student.
Whether you’re involved with neurodiverse students or not, this conversation is packed with tools and insights that aim to make you a more adaptive and understanding educator.
Your ratings and reviews on Apple Podcast and Spotify are always appreciated!
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Episode Transcript:
John Kozicki (00:01.882)
Welcome to Rock School Proprietor podcast. My name is John Kozicki. My guest today is the director of the music studio music school in Texas. She is a music education specialist for simply Simply Piano app and a whole slew of other titles, including speaker consultants and artist manager. And I think I even saw swim team mom.
listed on your bio. Becky Lawrence, how are you Becky?
Ms Becki (00:34.11)
I am well, thank you for asking and thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here.
John Kozicki (00:38.976)
Yeah, yeah. So, interestingly, with as much as you do have going on, you also consider ADHD as your superpower, correct? I love that. I love that. You and I participated in a panel discussion for the UMTA a couple months back, and I immediately thought, well, what a fun instructor I’m talking to.
Ms Becki (00:50.016)
Yes, yes, that is.
John Kozicki (01:09.316)
You’re primarily piano instructor, correct?
Ms Becki (01:12.172)
Uh, no, I’m, um, I’m the Jack of all trades among my teachers. I teach everything but cello. Um, you know, it kind of depends on what people come in for. So I, I, because I have ADHD, I play a lot of instruments because I learned very early that if I could read piano music, I could pretty much read anything else. And so.
through junior high and high school I was in band and anytime somebody failed in band the band director would say hey Tapia go learn this part because we need it for competition. So I would learn all of the instruments then I went to college and I you know learned more instruments so I pretty much play most of them.
My latest obsession is harp. I really really really a fun cool instrument to play. But yeah I play most of the instruments. I have staff that you know they only play one or two but I do.
John Kozicki (02:00.091)
my gosh.
John Kozicki (02:09.601)
Yeah, I don’t know why I even expected anything less. now, staying on theme with all of this, when we were doing that panel discussion, one of the, I guess, audience members, it was an online discussion. So one of the audience members had asked us if we had any tips on working with neurodivergent kids.
Ms Becki (02:12.908)
I need a laugh.
John Kozicki (02:39.345)
in music lessons. And you kind of just went for it. I had some things to talk about. And I thought that is going to be perfect for our discussion today. Now, obviously, you just disclosed ADHD as your superpower. I’ve mentioned in the past on this show, my son is neurodivergent.
And so I have firsthand experience with that. when my wife and I got the diagnosis for our son, when we started that journey, it completely changed how I thought about teaching. And I thought, is not a lot of people talk about this when it comes to private music lessons. I can say even personally,
Before my experience, I was even a little bit hesitant if I’d hear something like, my kid has ADHD. I don’t know how they’re going to do in lessons. I kind of just didn’t know what to do. I was a little hesitant. Maybe there was a little bit of fear. That’s all subsided at this point, and I’m like all about it. But have you found that to be similar? And if so, why do you think that is? Why do you think some instructors
are hesitant when they hear about a neurodivergent student.
Ms Becki (04:08.756)
I think it’s just unfamiliarity. think if you are a teacher and a parent comes in and they say, if you’re lucky, I have a child who’s neurodivergent, they have ADHD or they have dyslexia or they’re, you know.
high functioning autistic, I think the teacher is kind of taken a little bit aback because we’re not trained to do that. We are not trained to teach people who don’t learn exactly the same way the book lays things out. that’s a challenge. mean, that is really a challenge. are not. And I have to tell people all the time, I’m not a diagnostician. I cannot tell you whether your child has ADHD or dyslexia or whatever. I can change my teaching if you
John Kozicki (04:40.492)
Yeah.
Ms Becki (04:55.126)
Suspect that or if you do have a diagnosis I can change the way that I teach your child to make sure your child has an education that meets their needs Beyond just putting the book in front of them and saying okay. We’re gonna play this next song It does take a little bit more effort on my part Thankfully, I also have ADHD now to be fair. I did not know I had ADHD until I was in my mid 40s, so it
John Kozicki (05:24.77)
Mm-hmm.
Ms Becki (05:25.086)
I didn’t, I mean they didn’t diagnose this when I was a kid and for sure girls never had ADHD. So I was always labeled kind of you know, she’s quirky or this is my favorite. You’re so smart, why can’t you remember to do this? I needed that.
John Kozicki (05:29.548)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (05:41.506)
Yeah.
Ms Becki (05:41.772)
because my brain races around and I make connections really, really quickly and I am mad at you because it takes you so long to get your sentence out and I’m like, can I smack you on the back of your head so you’ll talk faster? Because I’ve already answered your question and I’m about to lose my thought. So all of those things, I didn’t know any of that about myself until I was diagnosed with ADHD and I literally cried because I was like, oh my gosh.
John Kozicki (05:47.435)
Right.
Ms Becki (06:05.45)
I am not the only one out there who is like this and there are solutions and I can grab these solutions and I can apply them to my life and things will be better. And that is really where my whole journey for ADHD started. It actually started with my son who was diagnosed with ADHD and the doctors said, you know, it’s hereditary. So which one of you two has it? My husband. And I was like, I’m pretty sure it’s me.
John Kozicki (06:22.189)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (06:26.317)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ms Becki (06:31.38)
it has it. So that was how our journey started. My son was in eighth grade when we found out that he had ADHD because he was not like hyper. He has inattentive ADHD. And so my children were never, both my kids have it, neither of my kids run around the room and they’re constantly fidgeting. They’re just inattentive. And it was,
I was so grateful to have the diagnosis. And so I think when a parent finds out that their kid has ADHD or dyslexia or there’s some kind of neurodivergent, there’s a lot of shame in that. Like they did something wrong and they don’t want to share it with anybody. And so you, the teacher, sometimes are left with this child who’s behaving in a way that you’re not accustomed to and you don’t know how to handle it as a teacher. And then when they are forthcoming with it, then you’re scared because you’re like, how
John Kozicki (07:12.692)
Mm-hmm.
Ms Becki (07:27.328)
Whoa, what do I do? I’ve heard all these horror stories about ADHD and I don’t know how to handle this. What am I going to do? So I think that that, to your point, that is why I think teachers get a little nervous when they hear somebody has ADHD. And we aren’t, again, going back to what I said at the beginning, we are not trained to do this. We are trained to music. We are not trained to teach music to a person who doesn’t learn the way we were taught.
John Kozicki (07:30.63)
Yes.
John Kozicki (07:35.021)
Great.
John Kozicki (07:47.158)
Right.
John Kozicki (07:55.394)
I want to unpack just that a little bit because you mentioned maybe parents are sometimes a little shameful. Also, I do think that this umbrella label, now I understand why there’s this umbrella label of neurodivergent, but that umbrella label makes things more confusing. What I’ve learned at this point through years of
like working with parents, because years ago, I that was a little bit like, Oh, no, what do I do here? I don’t, you know, how do I understand what I’m supposed to do in this situation when it’s brought to me by a parent? Now I start to unpackage this, right? I say, Well, what are we talking about here? You know, if if someone discloses that their child’s on the spectrum,
If someone discloses that their child is ADHD, I get inquisitive. Listeners of the show know that both Mandy and I are big on parent communication and education. So I’m not shy about saying, well, what kind of kid are we talking about here? You know, all right, you mentioned their autism. You know, are they good with patterns?
Ms Becki (09:21.868)
Thanks
John Kozicki (09:22.399)
you know, do they have any areas where they really struggle? That because all of that information can be helpful with then how we approach the lessons. And maybe I’ve got one instructor who’s going to be better than another. So I, know, now it’s not something to be afraid of or standoffish about, but it’s more about just like I would do with any other student. Understanding what their
into what their needs are, how we can best come to like a solution to find success in music lessons.
Ms Becki (09:59.936)
Well, and one of the things that we do at my studio is in the registration form, there’s the very last question that I ask parents when they’re signing up is you’re the parent. You know your child way better than we do. And if there’s, if you could just give us a few words about how your child learns best because you know them best. if
They are very tactile, please let me know. If they like to take notes, please let me know. And they have this whole paragraph where they can, in the form, where they can write out how their child learns best. And I can always look at that and I can almost immediately tell if they’re gonna be neurodivergent or not. The ones who say things like, they’re gonna want you to play first and then they’ll repeat it.
John Kozicki (10:48.813)
You’re right.
Ms Becki (10:55.51)
That is a huge indicator to me that I might be looking at somebody who has dyslexia because that’s how dyslexia is function. They want to hear the things, they want to see the things, and then they’ll repeat the things. Now, will they remember the things? No, not all the time. But that’s an indicator for me to watch for that. Not that that’s always the case, but it is an indicator for me to watch for that.
John Kozicki (11:09.803)
Right, right.
Ms Becki (11:22.322)
I make sure that we have among my teachers, have dyslexia and ADHD training where they have to go through a minimum of 10 hours of training to learn how to deal with neurodivergent kids because it is, as you say, it’s a spectrum. You have to have a lot of teaching strategies in your tool bolt so that you can make sure that when you see these behaviors among your students that you
You can tackle that without getting an official diagnosis. Again, not a diagno-tion. But I can observe behaviors in my students and modify my teaching to meet that.
John Kozicki (11:57.057)
Right.
John Kozicki (12:06.373)
That’s yeah. And what I found interesting about what you just said is you mentioned dyslexia and in your experience, well, yeah, you play it first and then they’re going to be able to repeat it, but they won’t remember it. Whereas if you have, if you have another kid who might be on the autism spectrum, that that memory might be the superpower.
Ms Becki (12:32.832)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (12:33.559)
Right. You might be able to show them something once and then a year and a half later, they’ll say, Hey, don’t you remember on this date you taught me that? Right. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think for, for me, as I kind of warmed up to it, I start, I almost start to appreciate that stuff a little bit more, right? Because
Ms Becki (12:36.022)
Yes.
Ms Becki (12:41.578)
Remember that time? Yeah, yes. That is totally true.
John Kozicki (13:00.617)
If you can lean into what their strengths are, then I mean, how, that’s almost like a gift, right? You don’t have to, you know, like, okay, X, Y, and Z is not gonna work for this kid, but this thing over here is going to work every single time, you know? So let’s just go with that.
Ms Becki (13:20.864)
Well, I don’t know that it will work every single time, it does give you, it gives you permission to be a super creative teacher.
It gives you permission to try all of the things because I know for some of my kids, a strategy that works for a month may not work the next month and we prepared to try something new. And you really can never get comfortable with what you’re teaching the same, you know, that you’re teaching the same thing the same way because it, who knows? I mean, it could be hormonal and they just can’t get it together. And, you know, for boys and girls, it…
John Kozicki (13:41.869)
Mm.
Good point.
Ms Becki (13:58.636)
They go through these periods of learning, learning, learning, learning, learning, plateau, and then they deep dive into, forgot everything. I have no idea what we’re doing next. Because they don’t remember any of it. And I don’t know what is going on in their brain. It takes a little bit to unpack it, dig it back up, and bring it to the surface so that they can remember what we learned. But it keeps you, as a teacher, really
John Kozicki (14:14.519)
Sure.
Ms Becki (14:28.01)
I think you need to be prepared to pivot. Anytime you’re working with kids, whether they’re neurodivergent or not, you need to be prepared to pivot because you really never know what kind of kids you’re going to get on that day. Maybe they’re low blood sugar and they haven’t eaten since noon and you just never know. I think you need to always have lots of options.
John Kozicki (14:43.969)
Right.
John Kozicki (14:54.027)
I love that. I love that. So I think with all of everything we just talked about, I number one, I love that you add that in your intake form or is it on your inquiry form where you just say, yeah, because that’s an invitation. That’s an invitation for parents to say, okay, I’m going to express this in whatever way I want. Right. Because also parents may
Ms Becki (15:06.892)
It’s our registration form. They made it. Yes. Yes.
John Kozicki (15:23.889)
not want to disclose that because they fear that you might treat their kid differently. And maybe for their kid, being treated differently isn’t the way to go. We just don’t know. But I love that you have that on your registration form because that’s an invitation for the parent to express it however they would like.
Ms Becki (15:25.889)
Okay.
Ms Becki (15:29.248)
differently, yes.
Ms Becki (15:45.984)
And not for nothing, I am very open about the fact that I have ADHD. When someone calls my studio and says, I’d like to talk to you about lessons, and we get to the part where they say, okay, so what do need to do next? And I say, listen, I have ADHD, I abhor paper. So you will not ever find me sending home a piece of paper with you. Our registration is online because if you hand me a piece of paper, I will lose it because I have severe ADHD, which is why I talk so fast.
John Kozicki (15:52.173)
Mm-hmm.
Ms Becki (16:15.788)
And I’m this is me on medication. I am on I am medicated and I’m talking about so you can imagine what it’s like when I’m not medicated. I am very open about the fact that I have ADHD and that I am willing to discuss that with them. And very often when I say I have ADHD and I’m kind of a hot mess all the time, the parents will say, really? You have ADHD? OK, that makes me feel a lot better because they they then can
I mean, talk about opening up the conversation. They then can tell me, my child has a diagnosis and now they’re free to tell me that. even if their kid doesn’t have ADHD, I still feel like I need to prepare the parents for all of me, because there’s a lot that goes into being a student here. And I need them to know that there’s a lot of enthusiasm, there’s a lot of energy that they’re
John Kozicki (17:02.347)
Yeah.
Ms Becki (17:12.66)
coming into a studio with all of these things and they need to just be prepared.
John Kozicki (17:17.877)
Yes, and can we talk a little bit about…
our other instructors in our studios. the oftentimes a lot of the kids that we see coming to our studios, when we hear things like, you know, we tried sports, you know, we tried this other thing. And we’re really just trying to get our child to find their people and to find their thing.
Can we talk a little bit about that and maybe what that is code for?
Ms Becki (17:56.044)
I I have been thinking of one in particular. Dad came in and he said, okay, so he’s not into sports and I’m hoping because I’ve heard really good things about your program that music will be his thing. And I’m always like, okay, well, I don’t know what to say to that because I’ve not met anyone yet who isn’t capable of being a musician.
John Kozicki (17:59.266)
Ha
John Kozicki (18:11.874)
Mm-hmm.
Ms Becki (18:23.166)
I just, I don’t, I don’t know anybody who can’t do it. is it a priority? Maybe not for this particular child. And so it’s not that they’re not capable of being a musician. It’s that they’re just not prioritizing what it takes to be a musician, but can they? Sure. so I, I am not, I am not a sports person. Okay. If you throw a ball at me, I’m going to close my eyes and hope that I hit it. I cannot be a sports person.
I can not be a sports person because I close my eyes because I’m scared. And I’m not going to get over that. That’s been a lifetime thing. I am not going to get over that. I can swim though and I can do archery where objects go away from me. But when it comes to sports, think sports and music can’t be compared because sports does require some physical skill and piano is more of a…
Music is more of a mental thing. You have to mentally engage. And yeah, you need some fine motor skill, but it’s not brain surgery. We can totally make a musician out of anybody. So when parents come in and they say that, I’ll be like, you know what? We’re going to try it. And I bet you’ll be surprised at how good they are at this.
John Kozicki (19:34.934)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (19:46.926)
Right, where I was going with it also was in so many of those cases when I’ve heard that, also I don’t diagnose, right? But in so many cases when I’ve heard that and then I meet the kid and then I start to understand like what that means, like, oh, well, you’re quirky like the rest of us over here, right? Like, I’m gonna hook you up with this instructor over here who has…
Ms Becki (20:08.704)
Yeah,
John Kozicki (20:15.605)
disclosed that he’s ADHD also, you know, and I think when we shine the light on that, not in a negative way, but just in a way that we start to understand that, you know what, these kids who are neurodivergent, they actually can excel at this because of their hyperfocus, because of their energy, because of how quickly their brains work.
Ms Becki (20:40.886)
Yes.
John Kozicki (20:45.867)
You know, like I found that this can be like an amazing outlet. Music can be an amazing outlet for some neurodivergent kids. So I love it.
Ms Becki (20:52.684)
us.
Yes, I totally agree. And again, if you had told my parents that I had ADHD when I was a kid and explained that people who have ADHD just have minds that…
work ridiculously fast. And that’s why I play so many instruments. That’s why I was so hyper competitive. That’s why I was so super successful in this one particular area. That’s why I was an all state drummer, a drummer for four years in high school. They would not have been surprised that
John Kozicki (21:20.865)
Mm-hmm.
Ms Becki (21:37.216)
that that was a characteristic of somebody who has ADHD. But I think parents don’t usually view having a neurodivergent label as a positive. as I said, being neurodivergent for me has been an enormous superpower. I mean, I don’t sleep much because most people who have ADHD do not sleep much. And because I have all that extra time.
You know, I speak lots of languages, I’ve learned lots of instruments, I do lots of things, I get lots of projects done. It just makes me happy to do those things and to really embrace the fact that I understand that I have ADHD and all of the goodness that comes from that. Are there some bad things? Yes, there are some bad things. But most of the things that I experience are good things and I love that I can share that with my neurodivergent students, my kids who have dyslexia or who have ADHD who come in.
know when they get here that it’s a it’s you know they have no idea what Miss Becky is going to be up to or what kind of story she’s going to be sharing today and they they I think they need to have those positive influences in their lives. We as the music teachers who are diagnosed with ADHD or have it or you know are working with it we need to be the positive for them to to see because they do get such a negative
Often they get a lot of negativity from teachers at school or from peers at school. And when they can come to my studio and they know that this is a place where they can blurt and they can say, okay, Ms. Becky, I can’t do this today. Can we do something else? Then yeah, I’m okay with that.
John Kozicki (23:08.823)
Sure. Right.
John Kozicki (23:25.035)
the love all this. So I wanted if we can, I know this is the tricky one because the key is being able to be flexible, being able to for instructors who are trying to navigate this. What are maybe two or three strategies that you could offer that would empower them to feel more comfortable going into a situation
with a neurodiverse student?
Ms Becki (23:57.068)
Okay, we only have like 45 minutes here. So I’m gonna try to make this short. Yeah, I mean, I could do like, you know, a whole bunch, but no, like my top three, because I get asked this question pretty often. My top three.
John Kozicki (24:01.271)
Ha
John Kozicki (24:04.609)
That’s why I said two or three. I mean, should I have said one or two?
Ms Becki (24:16.428)
my top three suggestions for teachers are think about multi-sensory learning. And I’m just going to say all of these things all at once and then we can talk about them individually. So multi-sensory learning, be prepared to set limits. And when I say set limits, I don’t mean like behaviorally. I mean, we’re only going to learn two measures today and then we’re going to do something else. Or we’re going to learn four measures today and then we’re going to do something else. Or we’re going to do 10 minutes
John Kozicki (24:41.463)
Mm-hmm.
Ms Becki (24:46.482)
of rhythm and then we’re gonna do this activity on the iPad and then we’re gonna do some sheet music stuff. Setting limits within the lesson so that they do not get overwhelmed with stuff. And then the third one is just be prepared to pivot because you just never know when something is not gonna work and you need to do something else. But the most important of those three things is teaching multi-sensory
in ways that are multi-sensory. And when I explained that to my mom, she was like, is the piano not a multi-sensory thing? I mean, you’re touching it and you’re looking at the things. And I was like, well, I mean, it is, but…
That’s not how we teach, that’s how we play. And so for teachers who have to navigate having a kid who has ADHD, you really do need to think very outside the box in terms of multisensory stuff. So sometimes, and this sounds dumb, but sometimes with my kids who need more.
John Kozicki (25:32.192)
Mm-hmm.
Ms Becki (25:50.12)
I will get, I have a whole set of the scented markers and scented pencils. And so when we’re taking notes, I’ll have them pick a scented pencil and they’ll smell the pencil, right? And then they’ll do their notes and whatnot on the page or we’ll write notes on the page for whatever they need to remember. That sense of smell is huge. It is huge. Because when they go home and they practice, they’ll be thinking about that pencil and then they’ll remember
because people who are neurodiversity usually have really good memories. If there’s a strong sensory application applied to it, they really need to have that extra experience. can’t just say things to them.
John Kozicki (26:28.951)
Mm-hmm.
Ms Becki (26:35.434)
and expect them to remember it. can’t just expect them to remember it from hearing. They have to experience it. And so anytime you can do that, where you can show them something that you’re teaching with the extra. Sometimes I’ll get out my rebounder. have a little exercise trampoline in my office and we’ll jump the rhythm to the song on the…
John Kozicki (26:57.741)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (27:01.697)
Yeah.
Ms Becki (27:02.176)
you know, so that they can really feel it. Sometimes I, if they’re having a meltdown, I’ll keep like sour Jolly Ranchers in my office and they’ll put that in their mouth and that will also kind of help calm their senses. But their multi-sensory learning is like…
John Kozicki (27:17.772)
Yeah.
Ms Becki (27:20.408)
crazy important for, especially for a neurodivergent person who really needs to experience the learning, not just play the learning. They need to experience all of it. So I think those kinds, if you look around your office, you will see things that you can use to make your learning more multi-sensory. The kids love, love, love when we go fishing. I have a
a little like dish bucket thing, you know, that you wash dishes, little rectangular ones. And I have foam fish in there that have rhythm notes written on them. And so we’ll go fishing like for the rhythm that they see on the page so that they can fish it out of the fishing bowl and then they have to clap it and then they have to, you know, beat it on the piano, keep the fallboard or if they’re a guitar student, I’ll have them strum it out.
John Kozicki (27:57.067)
Yeah, yeah, uh-huh.
John Kozicki (28:01.833)
my gosh.
Ms Becki (28:18.986)
And then we apply it to the song and they’re like, And from that point on, I promise you, every time they see that rhythm, like three quarter notes and an eighth note, every time they see that rhythm, they think of the fishy thing and they remember how it sounds and they remember how to do it. And that is really.
important for them to internalize all of the things that we are trying to teach them, because that’s really the point of teaching is to make sure that that information is easy for them to recall the next time they see it. And multisensory teaching really gives you the ability to do that. And to be perfectly honest, I don’t need a diagnosis to teach with multisensory. I teach it that way to everybody because everybody learns better when you use all of your senses to
John Kozicki (28:49.365)
I love that.
Ms Becki (29:06.048)
learn something. It doesn’t necessarily, I mean it’s a great strategy for people who are neurodivergent, but even if they’re not neurodivergent, who doesn’t learn better by having the fishing experience? I mean, you know, if we go outside and we do it with sidewalk talk, write out the music and sidewalk talk, who doesn’t love doing that, you know? So having
John Kozicki (29:18.709)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (29:27.723)
I want to, I do want to add, sorry, but I do want to add a caveat there, because it, well, in the spirit of being ready to shift in those instances, you do need to be ready to shift. Now, when we’re talking about neurodiverse kids, you can have a sensory seeker, right? My son is a sensory seeker. He loves to jump. He loves the sour candy. He that like you’re describing.
Ms Becki (29:51.244)
Mm-hmm.
Ms Becki (29:56.428)
You
John Kozicki (29:56.97)
all the things that he’s all about, right? But we can have sensory averse kids as well. just as like kind of a, you know, a little word of caution for any instructors who might be going into this thinking like, all right, I’ll get the smelly markers and I’ll get the sour candy. You run into a sensory averse kid and that could backfire on you.
Ms Becki (30:03.786)
Yes.
Ms Becki (30:21.676)
I mean it could and I usually ask the kids, are you ready? Do you want to learn this a different way or do you want to stick with what we’re doing? you’ll know too, a sensory-averse child is typically very quiet. I wouldn’t go into, I have one actually who came yesterday.
John Kozicki (30:29.975)
Yeah.
Ms Becki (30:42.108)
who is very sensory averse. likes things to be quiet. He likes my art to be dim. He likes for the, play on a digital piano, he likes for the volume to be lower. He has shown me those things long before, you know, I showed up as super excited. And so you have to mirror your student, you know, anyway.
John Kozicki (30:46.444)
Yes.
John Kozicki (30:54.476)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (31:08.674)
Right.
Ms Becki (31:08.864)
You have to mirror your students energy. You have to meet their energy. Sometimes you can pull them out of it if they need more energy, but you’ll know typically if they are a.
you know, very sensory sensitive person and they don’t like loud sounds and they don’t like loud noises and they don’t like, you know, lots of action moving around stuff. It’s distracting. So yeah, you’ll know. And I think that you’ll be able to still manage multisensory stuff with multisensory teaching with students like that. Even if it’s not jumping around and sour candy and all of that stuff, you can still do multisensory stuff. In fact, with the multisensory students who
John Kozicki (31:29.515)
Right. Yeah.
Ms Becki (31:50.02)
are much lower impact, so to speak. I’ll use like little cotton balls and we’ll put the cotton balls out, you know, on the piano or on the music stand. I have a little magnet, little magnet circle.
wooden disc things and I have a staff written out on my music stand and we’ll put the notes on there so they’re still getting that multi-sensory they’re seeing the colors they’re still involved but it’s not like, let’s jump around and Miss Becky’s got a balloon. It’s a little quieter, it’s a little easier for them to entertain but yeah you have a good point. Some kids need quiet multi-sensory and some kids need really loud.
John Kozicki (32:32.703)
Yeah, yeah, that’s awesome. Okay, second point. I forget what your second point was. yes, limits. That’s awesome.
Ms Becki (32:40.092)
limits, limits in music. When you’re teaching, and this is true, I know this is true for me, I, I
I get tired of making decisions. really get tired of making decisions. I make a lot of decisions every day for a lot of people. But for a child or a student, you know, they look at a piece of music that is 12 measures long. And, you know, sometimes we get them at the end of the day, they have spent all day trying very, hard to work super hard. And they’re working three times harder than everybody else because they have these, these, you know, focus issues and they’re trying to remember to listen and they’re listening so hard that they forget to hear.
John Kozicki (33:10.007)
Bingo. Mm-hmm.
Ms Becki (33:22.158)
And so they come to you and they’re exhausted. They are really exhausted. You put a new piece of music in front of them and it’s 12 measures long and that is just 12 measures too many. And so, you know, you and I do this pretty often with my kids. Listen, we’re only gonna learn the first four measures today, okay?
John Kozicki (33:27.189)
Right. Yeah.
John Kozicki (33:33.835)
Yes.
Ms Becki (33:42.45)
We’re just doing the first four. So let’s examine and take apart the first four measures. And we just do four measures, you know, and I will literally cover up with my little Post-it notes. I will cover up everything else so they don’t, they don’t think that I’m lying to them because they have trust issues anyway. And so if I cover everything else up,
That is a very strong signal to them that we are only doing those first. I’m not going to forget we’re doing four measures. Everything else is covered up. And then when they go home, they can tell their parents, listen, I know you think I should do the whole song, but Miss Maggie said only four measures and everything is covered up. So we’re just working on these four measures. And surprisingly, parents are.
John Kozicki (34:25.09)
Yeah.
Ms Becki (34:28.032)
parents are used to this and they actually appreciate that you are not overburdening their child with more work than the child can handle because they get that in math class. They get that in reading. And so with music, you if you limit what you’re going to be working on, what you’re going to be learning in that particular class, and you make sure that it is a very thorough, very dedicated, deep dive.
John Kozicki (34:37.345)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (34:40.778)
Exactly.
Ms Becki (34:54.762)
class, parents are not going to be upset with you because you only did four measures. They’re not. They’re going to be that you
John Kozicki (34:59.551)
Right? Yeah, that’s, that’s great. We have freedom right there. And that’s I think that’s an important point to highlight is that unlike when kids are in school, when there are, you know, very strict, like we’re gonna we have to do this, you have to get this done. It’s due by this, this date or this time. We don’t have that we are able to kind of ebb and flow as we see fit based on what
the student needs. And maybe let’s swing back around to that because I do want to talk about our own expectations as instructors that we impose. But yes, limits is great. What was your your third one?
Ms Becki (35:46.368)
was to pivot, you know, if something is not working, then try something else or put it away. Sometimes I have students who just get
John Kozicki (35:48.533)
Yes. Okay.
Ms Becki (35:56.148)
and you can see it in their eyes when they’re like, okay, I am so done with what we are doing right now. Can we do something else? You know, you have options. You have lots of options. You can pivot to just doing a rhythm game. One of my favorites is playing rhythm tic-tac-toe with the kids. So we just really quick draw to a tic-tac-toe board and I throw some rhythms on there and then we just play tic-tac-toe. We’re still doing music things. We’re still…
John Kozicki (36:15.149)
Mm-hmm.
Ms Becki (36:23.404)
concentrating on rhythm or I’ll put like guitar chord progressions in there. I really love doing guitar chord progressions in there for my guitar students because they’re like, what is she going to make me do now? And just that dopamine hit of, you know, there’s a change is, I mean, that’s good for kids who have, who are neurodivergent, but it’s good for kids who aren’t either, you know, to be able to change things up and being able to pivot doesn’t mean that you have to change your whole lesson plan.
John Kozicki (36:48.918)
Yes.
Ms Becki (36:53.358)
means that you have to change the direction of the lesson on that day. And you need to be, as we are, because we’re professional musicians, sensitive to what’s going on in the room. And so being able to pivot, think, and having lots of things in your teaching toolkit. Apps are great if you have an iPad or a tablet and there are games that you can play with the kids that don’t take any time at all, but are completely
John Kozicki (36:58.177)
Right.
Ms Becki (37:23.478)
music related. I think that’s a really great tool to have there too. just, pivoting is something that we are as teachers just need to be able to do. We need to not get stuck in our routine of okay we’re gonna do technique and then we’re gonna do our lesson and then we’re gonna do you know theory. I think you just need to be able to change things up quickly.
John Kozicki (37:45.952)
There is, yeah, yeah. And that’s a perfect segue because number one, these techniques that you’re describing, all of these things are, in my opinion, beneficial for all students, right? Yes, they’re helpful for our neurodiverse students because it allows us to mix things up. But every kid gets bored. You know what I mean? Every kid, yeah.
Ms Becki (38:11.936)
Yeah. I’ll get bored.
John Kozicki (38:16.041)
Every kid gets bored. So I think that variety and these techniques that we use, even with neurotypical kids, these are great things to have in our toolkit. And so that in any situation, we can assess the situation and say like, maybe just this kid has low blood sugar and they are tired, you know, not because their brain is working harder than all the other kids, but just it’s six o’clock.
They haven’t eaten anything since noon, right? You know what I mean? And, and so I think all of these techniques, again, going back to, to, to my journey, like when I started understanding how my son’s brain worked, work in progress, by the way, I’m still, I’m still trying to figure it out, but what it did was it really highlighted
big picture how all of our brains develop, right? It made me understand brain development and milestones from the perspective of what is neurotypical, but also how my son is progressing, right? So understanding that not just from the parent of a neurodiverse student or neurodiverse kid allows me to also see how brain development works in every
Ms Becki (39:14.166)
Yes.
Ms Becki (39:40.972)
Go ahead. I was going to say going back to where we started with the teachers who might be a little bit hesitant about teaching somebody who’s neurodiverse. Don’t think of them as neurodiverse. Think of them as students that you’ve already experienced this as a teacher, already gone through this with.
John Kozicki (39:41.287)
And sorry, go ahead. No, go ahead.
John Kozicki (39:59.903)
Yes, yes.
Ms Becki (40:03.11)
all of your students at some point will come in and they’re just not ready to learn and you had to pull out all the stops to get them to do this. With a neurodivergent kid, you just do it more often, but it’s still a skill that you already have. You haven’t, you’re not a teacher because you want to sit in the seat and just point out mistakes. That’s not why you’re a teacher. So you, you do know how to do this. You just have to be more open to doing it more often. And
John Kozicki (40:04.972)
Yes.
Ms Becki (40:30.132)
To that end, and especially what you said, that you’re still on this journey, I am also still on this journey and I’ve been studying it now for quite some time.
John Kozicki (40:38.997)
Mm-hmm.
Ms Becki (40:39.724)
I read a lot of books. I read a lot of books on neurodivergence. I read a lot of books on people who have ADHD. I read a lot of books on parenting kids with ADHD because sometimes what we do as music teachers is parent the kids and teaching them how to do life skills, how to finish something we start, how to manage with executive function, which people with ADHD are severely lacking in. I read a lot of books on how to do that.
John Kozicki (40:56.045)
Mm-hmm.
Ms Becki (41:09.678)
and how to reach kids to teach them these skills. And so if you’re a teacher who’s interested in this field, please read, read everything. Find, because you will see how it applies to your teaching when you read these books about parenting a kid with ADHD and what works and what doesn’t work. For my son, we could never ever, ever remove things from him as a disciplinary thing.
John Kozicki (41:18.561)
Yes, right.
John Kozicki (41:39.543)
Mm-hmm.
Ms Becki (41:39.55)
from my kid was like, he was like, well, then I don’t need it. And I will just sit in my room with nothing in my room and I will think deep thoughts. You’re not. And so we had to find a different way to parent, you know, my son who was, who was you, you can’t, you can’t punish him by removing the things. it just, we.
John Kozicki (41:56.29)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (42:00.927)
Yeah, and I laugh because I’ve experienced that also.
Ms Becki (42:03.986)
Yeah, we had to flip it and say, okay, if you get this done, then you can do this. We will add this to your fun experiences. You will be earning your fun experiences. And that was an easier way to discipline my son versus taking things away from him and punishing him and grounding him and making him write sentences. None of that worked with my kid, none of it. But we were able to say, okay, if you bring home three A’s,
we’ll go do, we’ll go to a concert that you want to go to, you know. That kind of thing was way more efficient for my son. But I had to learn how to manage my kids by reading all of these books. And as I’m reading all of these books, I’m also learning that these are techniques that I can use in my studio with my students.
John Kozicki (42:53.547)
Yes. Okay, so one more thing. Last one, as we try and narrow this down, I want to talk real quick about our own expectations that we place on our students as instructors, right? And how, you know, it’s okay to lighten up a little bit.
Ms Becki (43:09.536)
Yes.
Ms Becki (43:14.88)
Yes. Yeah, I believe that it is okay to lighten up a little bit. have as a teacher, you have an expectation of weekly progress, monthly progress, annual progress. You have an expectation of that. You have an expectation that you think the parents have of the lesson. And I promise you the parents don’t have that expectation. I mean, maybe some of them do, but
John Kozicki (43:37.197)
Bingo, bingo, yeah.
John Kozicki (43:43.458)
Mm-hmm.
Ms Becki (43:43.742)
If they have a problem with their expectation of what your lesson is like, they’ll bring it to you. They might not be happy about bringing it to you, but they’ll bring it to you. And you have the right to say, listen, I am working with your child one-on-one. Okay. This is not school. There’s not 14 kids in this class. It’s just me and him. And I am telling you that your child needed this kind of lesson today. It’s not our normal day. We don’t normally teach. I don’t normally, you know, use our time this way, but today,
John Kozicki (43:50.571)
Yes.
John Kozicki (44:03.649)
Mm-hmm.
Ms Becki (44:13.646)
day, this is what we needed to work on. And you have to build that relationship with the parents because you are in fact the expert at the teaching. And so they need to trust that you’re not wasting their time, that you’re not wasting their money with their child and having them just sit there quietly. No, you are still doing things that are musical even if it doesn’t look like that all the time.
John Kozicki (44:41.685)
Yes, and I will say in most situations what you said is the parents do not have that crazy expectation for progress. That is self-imposed for the most part.
Ms Becki (44:51.072)
They really don’t. Yes. Yes. Most of the time it is our, and I hear this a lot from teachers when they say things like, I have this student, I don’t know how I’m going to teach this kid because we’re not getting anything done that I want us to get done. And I feel like I’m starting over every week when I see this kid and clearly I’m not teaching it well. Okay. Maybe there’s some truth to that, but the parents don’t see that.
The parents are seeing that. The parents are seeing a child who’s excited to come to class and who’s excited to spend time with you. And so, yeah, maybe we need to change the way we teach this kid so the kid is learning the way they need to learn. But that is an expectation that you have. You think that the parent is looking at every single assignment sheet and going, ooh, we did pages 28 and 29 last week, and this week we’re doing 29 and 30.
and then the next week it’s, you know, 29 and 30. And you think the parents are going to be upset about that and they’re not. They’re not. If they even look at the assignment sheet, they’re not going to be upset about that. You have some latitude to teach. Just teach.
John Kozicki (45:53.399)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (46:02.253)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (46:07.351)
Yeah, to be a little bit more, yeah, gentler on yourself as the instructor, not be so focused on progress. Big picture, music is a long game, right? That progress is going to happen. You don’t always see it week to week.
Ms Becki (46:19.979)
It is.
And that’s why recitals, yeah, that’s why the recitals and performances are such a big deal because you need to show the parents, this is where we start, but here’s where we can go. If you stick with me, if you stick with me, you let me teach. I promise it will be worth it. It will totally be worth it because you’ll wind up with a student like Elise who goes, she takes the stage. She’s like 10. She takes the stage.
John Kozicki (46:36.673)
Yeah. Yes.
Ms Becki (46:52.202)
like a pro and then she plays like she was born doing it, you know? But there’s been a lot of work that’s gone into that. Lisa’s been a student since she was three. So, you know, it’s not like that happened overnight. And I always tell the parents in the recital notes before the recital, it’s very important for you to stay through the entire recital. Please don’t leave because your kids need to see progress.
John Kozicki (46:57.025)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (47:01.943)
Ha ha!
Ms Becki (47:17.984)
They need to see what it looks like and sounds like from where they are to what will happen in a year, what will happen in two years, how they will grow that way. And that’s really, really important, both for us as teachers to communicate, but for parents to understand too.
John Kozicki (47:36.823)
Yeah. Becky, is all of this is so great. We’re going to wrap this up. I really appreciate all your insight. I think there’s like so much gold in the advice that you shared, those points that that instructors can use in just like how to pivot in lessons, understanding what’s going on in like the brains of these neurodiverse students. Great stuff. Thank you so much, Becky.
Ms Becki (48:06.452)
It has been my pleasure and thank you for having me.
John Kozicki (48:09.898)
Absolutely. All right, we will see everyone next time.
