In this episode of the Rock School Proprietor Podcast hosts John Kozicki (Michigan Rock School and RockSchoolProprietor.com) and Mandy York (Music Time of Milford) delve into the common questions about starting children in music lessons. Is there a minimum age requirement? Which instrument should they begin with?
In this episode:
- Mandy shares insights from her extensive experience transitioning children from early childhood classes to more structured settings
- John reveals the three essential questions he asks parents to help them make informed decisions about their child starting lessons
The value of exploring developmental readiness, instrument options, and play vs. learning provide over simply the age of the student
How parents are seeking guidance, and understanding their goals makes us more effective as instructors.
Mandy shares insights from her extensive experience transitioning children from early childhood classes to more structured settings, and John reveals the three essential questions to help parents make informed decisions. Whether you’re a teacher or a parent pondering the right approach, this discussion offers valuable perspectives on fostering a love for music in young learners.
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Episode Transcript:
John Kozicki (00:02.296)
How do you talk to parents when they ask about starting their children in music lessons? Should you set a minimum age? Should kids start on a specific instrument? On this episode of Rock School Proprietor podcast, Mandy gives her advice from helping hundreds of kids move from her early childhood classes to a more structured setting. And I share the three questions that I like to ask parents to help them make decisions about lessons for their children.
John Kozicki (00:30.69)
Welcome to Rock School of Proprietor podcast. My name is John Kozicki.
and I’m Mandy York.
We were having coffee the other day, Mandy, and we were talking about when students or when kids should start music lessons. And we thought, well, hey, let’s have a conversation about how to talk with parents when they ask when my child should start music lessons.
Yep, I get this question a lot too.
Yeah, and do you in your in your studio, being that you’re dealing with early childhood, do you get that question more from the perspective of do you feel like you’re giving advice like parents are like maybe exiting your program and thinking, well, what should we do next? Do we go right into private lessons? What do think?
Mandy York (01:30.22)
Yeah, yeah, a lot of my families, I feel they come to me asking for advice like, when are they ready? What age? What teacher? Even instrument, you know, what instrument those kind of things. Right. So they’re asking for advice.
I think I get it more from when parents have kind of already decided, because we start at like four years old in my studio. So I think I get it more from parents having already decided, all right, we’re ready to get our kids in, oftentimes they say lessons, right? In music lessons. I don’t always necessarily think that private music lessons are right.
which I think we’ll get into in this conversation. But it did get me thinking. I know that there are a lot of instructors and a lot of studios out there who have very hard and fast rules related to a child’s age. your child has to be seven, or your child has to be whatever age in order to take lessons with us. Thoughts on that?
Yeah, I hear that from different teachers. I don’t think really in childhood, there’s ever a one size fits all, you know? so I wouldn’t, I’m not a private lesson teacher, so I mean, that’s my opinion on that. I don’t know that that’s how I would approach it, but I also, from the other side of things, think like it’s a teacher’s prerogative to say like,
Nope, I’m just not going to deal with five year olds. know? Yeah. Yeah. That’s fair.
John Kozicki (03:10.99)
Yeah. And, and that could very well be based on how they teach. Um, but it does get me thinking about like, so let’s say, let’s say you’re a parent of a five year old and you do call a, um, an instructor or a lesson studio and you say, Hey, my child is
Five years old, we’re thinking about music lessons and what the parent is told is, well, no, sorry. We only accept kids who are seven.
What does that parent do then? How do they leave that conversation? Do they say like, oh, okay, I guess we’ll wait until seven. Or do they say like, that’s not the answer I was hoping to hear. Maybe I should ask someplace else. I don’t know, what do you think?
Well, it depends on the parent. they’re, if they’re not a musician, if they’re not educated in these things, they might say, okay. I didn’t realize like kids don’t take lessons until they’re seven. They don’t know that. Well, maybe there are, there are other people out there that will, that will work with your child. so yeah, I, I kind of see that as my job in this early childhood realm to say like, you know, you’re this.
this would be a good path for your child. This would be a good path for your child. Here are some of my thoughts and philosophies on how this works so that when they do go out there, they, they know what to look for.
John Kozicki (04:50.134)
let’s flip it around. Let’s say, let’s say a similar situation, but you’ve got these hard and fast rules about age and, maybe someone calls and says like, my, kid is, is six years old. or what did I say? Did I say seven? I don’t remember what the age range is. said the hard and fast. Okay. So what if, what if someone says, Hey, my, my child is seven.
Yeah, seven.
John Kozicki (05:17.9)
we are interested in starting lessons and they’re like, okay, sure. What days and times are going to work for you? And then you get that kid in lessons and you realize this kid is a young seven and developmentally, maybe this isn’t the right scenario for them. So I think that’s a possibility too, right? So I don’t know if the age thing is always.
No, like I said, it’s, you know, there’s not a one size fits all for kids, you know, in these early years. and what if you have a six year old, five or six year old that’s been in early childhood music classes all their life, maybe even a parent is, is musically inclined and they, they can keep a steady beat.
Or what if you do have that very rare case, which I have, where the kid is three years old and they’re a phenom. And I remember when that happened to me, when I got the phone call, was like, in my head, was like, I don’t know about this. This seems crazy. But I invited the family to come to the studio and
sure enough this kid could he understood rhythms he could like maybe he was a genius i don’t know i’m not qualified to assess that but this three-year-old could handle anything that the instructors threw at him yeah so obviously obviously that’s the exception
That’s wild.
Mandy York (06:56.096)
Yeah. Yeah, of course. But that’s the point, right? and I think I’ll just say, is what I appreciate about what you do is that you get curious. This is what instructors, instructors should do. Ask the questions and find out. Don’t just say, right, we only start at seven because it’s not a one size fits all. And you don’t know what the background of the child is.
Right. And I will add to that story. At the time, I only offered private lessons. I offered private lessons in bands. So I didn’t even have that, the four to seven year old kids rock program that we offer. So that was an exceptional case. So here’s my, my take on this. And every instructor obviously is going to have a different perspective and every instructor has their own
thoughts and that’s fine. What I’m really advocating for though is to be curious with those parents in those situations and ask questions and I have I have three questions that I recommend asking and I do ask in these situations so that when you are faced with this question from from parents.
You’re not just basing it on one, this arbitrary thing related to how long the kid has been alive, right? But, you’re coming at it from a perspective of, do want to help the parent, regardless of if that means this child is going to become a student of yours in your studio, or maybe the
the parents decide like, yeah, maybe we should wait a little bit or whatever the case may be. I think if we come from that place of wanting to help and be a guide for the parents, that’s always going to leave them with a feeling of like a positive feeling about about us as the studio owners, as the providers, because we’re trying to help them regardless.
Mandy York (09:03.182)
Yep, and that that word will spread. That’s a good thing for you.
Yes, and they’ll remember that. well, what, I mean, maybe I’ll get into like what those three questions are that I asked, but I also want to hear, because you get this so much more from people who are already in that place where they trust you and they want to know what you have to say. So I want to know what you, what you tell.
Totally.
Mandy York (09:30.958)
Okay. You’re going to make me go before you tell us your questions. Yeah. Well, I start them off as babies and, uh, they’re with me through age five. Well, that’s the age range of my classes, right? Um, more and more kids are getting into pre-K and JK, you know, then than ever before. I really think we’re putting kids in schools earlier. So I think over the last 10, 20 years,
the average age of these early childhood classes has gone down a little bit. We don’t have as many five-year-olds in class, but anyway, they’ll be with me for a couple years. And then they’ll say, okay, do you know any piano instructors? We want to get Sally in piano lessons. And I’ve not taught piano lessons. I’m a singer, but I…
I do immediately kind of get curious and think like, it’s a little young to be taking piano lessons, maybe before five.
Do you think they’re saying that or they’re asking that because they just assume that’s what they’re supposed to do? Yeah.
Yes. lot of times I do. That’s the feeling that I get. And so the questions have to be asked. One thing I will often ask is like, okay. Do you play at home? Or do you have a piano and do you play piano? Because maybe that’s where this coming from. And I can see if you have, you know, if you’re playing at home, you can support a younger child at home better than if you,
Mandy York (11:06.252)
You maybe don’t even have a piano, but I’m going to get my child in piano lessons and then get a keyboard. if you’re already established and you want to start doing this with your child, maybe that’s one thing. I, it is kind of tricky because it’s not that I’m wanting to keep the clients in my studio, like keep their business, but I really do truly believe that at two or three years old, Sally’s not done playing with music yet. Yeah.
Like you said, maybe there’s a rare case and there’s certain circumstances where lessons will be a good fit, but, but she’s not done playing with music yet. And that’s most of the time what I’m trying to convey to my parents is that, I have noticed her steady beat, like she’s being more consistent during the hello song and tapping that steady beat. I’ll point these things out to the parents or
she’s singing the tonic note at the ends of the phrases. This is, this is really cool. those are some things maybe parents don’t, don’t know, you know, they’re not picking up on all those little musical behaviors that the teacher sees. So I point those things out to the parents and, and say, you know, the, this is developmentally appropriate through five and she is learning so much here just through playing with music and
with what you are reinforcing at home playing with music, that when she gets a little bit older, she’s going to have these pieces in place and she’s going to be really ready for lessons. She’s gonna be able to keep a steady beat. She’s going to be able to sing in tune and we’re playing with rhythm patterns and all that too. So she’s going to understand rhythm, you know, and the math.
music if you want to say. So I try to point those things out to the parents and sometimes, you know, like maybe, I hate to say uneducated, but a parent that maybe doesn’t, hasn’t taken music lessons before they’ll say like, okay. Like, yeah, that makes sense. Right. That’s all that you need. You just needed to, to point those things out to them. but maybe, well, older brother plays piano and
Mandy York (13:27.638)
And Sally wants to play too. Or maybe the answer is, I play and I would like to get her in some lessons and we have a piano at home. Okay. Then you have to find the right fit. Yeah. and this is good for you as a studio owner to know who else is in your area. Right? We’ve talked about making sure connections with other studio owners and yeah, that synergy between teachers and studios. one thing that I like to point out for early learners is
that wherever you end up, find the good fit. The teacher is really important. The teacher, like wouldn’t you say, like that personality is really important. Just like kids aren’t, know, there’s not a one size fits all, there’s not a one size fits all teacher. There’s not one teacher that is great for every single person. Find the good fit and the lessons have to be fun, right? They have to really enjoy the lessons.
They don’t have to practice every day. Right. We talked about this. They don’t have to go home and practice every day, but if they are enjoying it and even if they’re just sitting at the piano, you know, I’m using piano lessons. So if they bring home their method book, they love their lesson. They bring home their method book, but then they’re just sitting at the piano and noodling around. Cool. Cool. She’s five. That’s great. She’s like, she’s experimenting and she’s learning.
Yeah.
Mandy York (14:53.678)
So it needs to be fun and they need to be interested. Now I started my daughter at five, I believe she was five, and she was really into it. But then she didn’t really want to go to her lessons anymore after a little while. I pulled her out. And I do tell my parents this too. I pulled her out. It wasn’t fun anymore. The piano was there, the keyboard, whatever, and she still might noodle around a little bit. But I pulled her out because it wasn’t as fun.
And then she went back. Yeah. Like when she wanted to go back, we went back again. I don’t know how popular that opinion is. I don’t know, but, that was.
I’m a big fan of that because I’m, I think forcing it, you run the risk of this, the child being turned off by it even more and like closing that door so they don’t want to go back because now they have, not only was it a negative experience and they wanted to stop, but then they were forced to do this thing that they didn’t want to do in the first place. You know?
Do you think that?
Do you think parents sometimes maybe have this self-imposed belief that there’s this window of opportunity for their child to learn how to read music or learn how to play this instrument and boy, we got to make sure we’re doing it or else that door is going to close. And so we got to get them in private lessons.
Mandy York (16:33.92)
Yeah. boy. We could, we could get deep here. think, I think culturally it’s kind of that way with a lot of things. I mean, you’ve got kids like trying out for several sports clubs in elementary school, right? You know, we’re in, I think we do that in, in many areas. so I, yeah, I would agree with you.
and I think I’ve kind of feel like my job is to say, no, this is good. This is what you’re doing is appropriate and helpful. Like they are learning so much playing with music. Right. They don’t realize how much is getting in there. and you know, a 10 year old is still in that, that early spot where they’re
They’re able to learn things so quickly. Yeah. Right. It’s not like, it’s not like a 20, 30 year old trying to pick up an instrument and learning something 40 year old, right.
I’m going to draw at the risk of opening up a can of worms, because I don’t think this is a perfect comparison, but I am going to draw a comparison to language learning and the developmental window that my understanding is it’s from roughly about like 12 months to like 12, 13 puberty age, right? Where
the, I don’t know, did they call it the neuroplasticity of the brain is, is that’s when people are most likely to pick up language. Yeah. Right. And that’s, that’s like when they will, they will develop those language skills. And in an instance where someone is not exposed to any sort of verbal or written communication in that window, well, if they get beyond that, then they will never speak or they will never communicate. Right.
John Kozicki (18:44.854)
Now that’s really hard to do because it means you have zero exposure to anyone talking to you ever. Right. So we get it. It’s like, I think there’s a study about it, like in the 1800s of it, like a child found in the woods in France or something like that. now to draw that parallel.
Music being a language. Yeah, there’s that similar window, right? But that also means that for the for kids to not pick up anything in music, it means they have to not be exposed to music, period. Like they don’t they can’t hear it. They, you know, can’t be exposed to any sort of consistent rhythms that they might hear from like a train going by or you know what I mean? Yeah. So I think there’s something to be said for that.
I forget where I was going with this.
Yeah, I mean, it’s it’s happening.
Even just again, even just listening to music, like learning about music, that’s all exposure. And that all builds that, that basis for ultimately communicating with music. If, if you learn how to use these tools, which are like piano and guitar and like recorder or whatever.
Mandy York (20:06.454)
Yeah. Yep. I totally agree. And that’s, that’s what I try to emphasize to my parents. Like keep doing what you’re doing. We don’t need to rush this because what you’re doing is music learning. It’s just informal.
Because it doesn’t mean that after 12 years old or after the hip puberty, it’s done. Right? What that means is that their brains are much more developed now and now they can study it at like a higher level. Now they can understand it at a level where they can put the pieces together and then build on that.
Yeah. Yeah, that’s amazing. I’ll just touch quickly because on a couple other things about starting lessons really early, just I don’t know, from my world, right? There are physical limitations to some instruments. Because I’ve had some parents that have asked about guitar or even wind instruments. And I was like, yeah, we
You know, that’s, that’s not something we start that early. Their hands are too small, you know, or, um, even with my specialty, private music or voice lessons, I don’t like to start elementary kids because their voices are still developing. Sure. Yeah. Um, so there’s something to that. Um, the Suzuki method, you know, we have violin string instruments. Those can be sized. You know, they make.
size, quarter size. So that’s a good instrument if your child is interested in that. My daughter played ukulele, know, little fingers. That’s a great way to start, and piano is okay. They’re not going to be learning music with chords that their little fingers can’t reach yet, right? They’re starting small. That’s great. But those, those parents that ask about like wind instruments and things.
Mandy York (22:03.842)
Nope, there is a reason we wait on those. They don’t have the strength, the dexterity, their hands are not big enough, or the lung capacity to do those things yet. Don’t rush. Just play with the music. You’ll get there.
Yes. Okay, all of those things, I think, are things that generally will come up in the questions that I ask in these exploratory questions. So…
And sorry, we’re going back to your question. So this is when someone calls you and asks, we’re ready for lesson.
Right. Let’s say I get a phone call and it is a parent who says, yeah, my, um, I don’t know. I’m just going to say six. Okay. Okay. I’m going to say six years old. Um, and they say, my child’s six or thinking about getting them into private music lessons and
That’s not generally that’s the private lessons is not what I would recommend for that six year old, but I don’t immediately say like, oh no, we don’t do that. Right. Because I know that that’s, that’s not me helping. Right. Right. Um, so I started conversation. I have these three questions that I’m going to ask in hopes of getting the information that I need to get from the parent to then make a recommendation.
Mandy York (23:19.938)
We don’t do that.
John Kozicki (23:39.502)
And usually it does lead to my recommendation. number one, I will ask if they don’t present the information, I’ll ask what age is your child. And I generally sort of think about like, at least in my studio, the under seven category and the eight and older category.
I tend to feel like seven and under in most instances. Now we have talked about those exceptions in most instances. I don’t, I’m not a big fan of private lessons for those kids. part because I’ve tried that in the past and it almost always ends where the kid decides they don’t like it anymore. Right. And so that’s kind of the same camp you’re in. It’s okay.
play with music, right? And I feel like that gets lost oftentimes in private lessons. Now, more power to those private lesson students who embrace that. And they make that part of their lessons with that age group. But I just do feel like more often than not, the kids view it as it’s kind of like going to school, right? So I will ask, what age? Because then then we can kind of have a conversation.
about like what the expectations are. Now if the kids are eight and older, generally speaking, I’ll think like, yeah, this could work. But I still will ask the other questions to figure out how I can help these people. So second question I will ask is what instrument are you thinking?
John Kozicki (25:39.412)
I, we teach at, at my studio, we teach guitar, bass, drums, piano and voice in addition to our band programs, which we kind of work slightly differently. guitar is the hardest. It is the hardest, right? You have to use two hands to make it work. Unlike piano where you can, you can be in lessons on piano for years and just play right handed.
Right? so I think that’s an important question to ask. What instrument are you thinking if we’re talking about a six year old who, and the parents are like, yeah, guitar. Well, then we got to talk about fine motor skills. are they coordinated enough to be able to handle playing a guitar? Right? What are the expectations there? are they thinking drums might be a better choice because
more gross motor skills, but then also, are they a coordinated kid? Are they good with patterns and rhythms? So I think there’s a lot to unpackage there.
John Kozicki (26:55.578)
One, I guess, little red flag that I look for is if parents say something like, well, he really wants to play the guitar. And again, if we’re talking about a six year old, Why does he want to play guitar? I don’t know. He saw his uncle play the guitar. He thinks it’s really cool.
Yeah.
John Kozicki (27:21.262)
Okay, how old is the uncle? When did the uncle start to play guitar? I think it’s great, but is a kid making, is a six year old making decision about what instrument to play because they understand what is involved in playing that instrument or are they making that decision because like, I saw a red guitar once and I think the color red is great.
Yes. Right.
Yeah, know, so it’s worth having these discussions like why that instrument, right? Because there’s a if there’s a reason why, then we’ve got to understand like, if that reason aligns with what could happen in lessons, or another popular one I’ve heard is, yeah, I’m looking for piano lessons for my kid. Someone told me they should just start on piano.
and they could do a different instrument later. Right? Have you heard that one? let’s say the kids 10, right?
Sure.
John Kozicki (28:28.334)
Kid is dead focused on playing guitar. I wanna play, no, let’s do drums, let’s do drums. Kid’s dead focused on playing drums, wants to play the drums, has a natural sense of rhythm. Parent says, yeah, but I was told that piano’s the best one to start with.
Can you imagine being a 10 year old, all you want to do is play the drums and your parents are like, well, someone told me that you should start on piano first. Yeah. Poor piano teacher, poor students, ultimately poor parents because they’re then they’re in a situation where like, I don’t know, we thought we were doing the right thing, putting them in piano lessons because someone told me that. And kid doesn’t want to play piano. Kid wants to play drums.
poor piano teacher. Right.
John Kozicki (29:17.304)
piano instructor doesn’t want to teach the kid that wants to play drums. She’s like the worst fit, right? So yeah, question, that’s question number two, what instrument? Again, all leads to a discussion. To sort of unpackage this and be the guide and help parents. Now, last one, little bit harder to answer usually, but.
What are your goals or expectations in the first like six to 12 months for the kid? Again, I think this is telling sometimes you get parents who are like, well, I want them to I want to be able to read music. Okay. At what level, right? What is that expectation that they’re reading music? I want them to be able to play three songs.
Okay, maybe What songs you know again, there’s a there’s a lot on package, but I think by asking the questions You’re gathering information and then you’re able to make an informed recommendation That has nothing to do with with age But it’s really getting to know the child and what they like about music and what the parents want to see Yeah, the outcome. Yeah, you know
That’s really interesting, the responses you get about expectations. I think that’s cool. I mean, for the parents to have to verbalize that. I’m just processing that for the first time. Like, they really say like two to three songs or…
Oh yeah, I’ve heard it. Yeah, I’ve heard. Yeah, how long will it take before they can play a song? No idea, right? It’s like an impossible question to answer. Yeah.
Mandy York (31:10.488)
Yeah, okay.
Mandy York (31:16.79)
Okay. Well, that’s, yeah, I think that’s, that’s really cool. That’s a good conversation starter and to get those expectations more aligned with reality.
Yeah. Yeah. And I will say that with all of these, I do go into a genuinely feeling like I want to help them find what is right for their kid at whatever stage they’re in, right? Whether that’s with me or whether that’s with someone else, you know, I’m about all about trying to help. And I just, you know, in the spirit of parent education, I know you’re big on it. I’m big on it.
parents often just don’t know what to ask. Yeah. Right. Or they’re just like, this lesson place is the closest to my house. Maybe I can get a lesson time on Thursday at five 30 because my other kid has soccer at the field right down the street at the same time or whatever those arbitrary, you know, reasons are. and you know,
I get it. That stuff’s important.
Yeah, I can’t blame a parent for that.
John Kozicki (32:32.93)
Yeah, but not always necessarily like going to lead to success for their kids.
So, yeah, good job. love that. love it. As a studio owner, you get curious about what, what your students are looking for. Yep.
Well, and props to you for trying to guide them before they get to that. know, because it’s people like you, then like they might call me and they’ve already had a lot of these conversations. I already thought about it. So it’s great.
Yeah. Yep. It goes back to that synergy thing because I like to, when kids are older and ready, I like to say, well, John has this program where they get to try all the instruments and they’re in a group, you know, it’s group music making. It’s a little bit like what we do here, but, it’s not just heading into the private lesson room for 30 minutes every week.
All right. All right. Well, that is how we talk to parents about when to start music lessons. Thanks, Mandy. We’ll see you next time. John.
John Kozicki (33:40.8)
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