In this episode of the Rock School Proprietor Podcast, hosts (Michigan Rock School and RockSchoolProprietor.com) and Mandy York (Music Time of Milford) music lessons contribute to building confidence in children.
Many lesson providers promote the claim that music lessons will build confidence in children, but how can we back that claim up? In this episode John and Mandy provide tools you can use when talking with parents about how lessons can, and will build confidence in their children.
In this episode:
- The differences between knowledge and confidence, and how these elements interact and influence each other in a learning environment.
- What “confidence” means in the context of music education.
- Finding the delicate balance of imparting knowledge and boosting self-esteem
- How providing social interactions in music programs can enhance a child’s confidence.
Tune in for a thoughtful conversation about the practical ways music instructors can encourage children to transition from timid learners to confident performers, whether through private lessons or group ensemble experiences.
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Episode Transcript:
Speaker 2 (00:02.336)
In music lesson circles, we hear a lot about lessons building confidence. But how exactly does learning music build confidence? On this episode of Rock School Proprietor podcast, and I discuss how we talk with parents about building confidence, confidence in lessons, addressing stage fright, or maybe even reluctance to join an ensemble or a rock band. Stay tuned.
you
Speaker 2 (00:31.566)
My name is John Kaziki. And Mandy, we’re talking about confidence today. Confidence in music lessons. Now I’ve noticed that there’s a lot of talk about confidence in the private music lesson world, in music studio world. And I think many parents are even looking for
And I’m Mandi York.
Speaker 2 (01:01.24)
They’re looking to build confidence in their kids and that’s part of the motivation to get them in music lessons. Yeah. I’ve heard from parents, I want my, my child to build confidence. and I think that resonates with, with the teachers and the studio owners and many are even using building confidence in their marketing and the messaging. Have you encountered that in your kind of
cruising around the Internet.
Yeah, for sure. Well, and we’re both parents. We want our kids to be confident and to take appropriate risks and reach their full potential.
Yeah. And I’ve even seen, I’ve even seen it used as taglines on websites, like we build confident kids or building confidence through music lessons. yeah, I thought we’d talk about it because, while, you know, it seems like parents are saying that they want that and music lesson providers are saying, Hey, we do that. I also feel like there’s not a lot of.
there’s not much more below the surface that I’m hearing, you know, about building confidence. So not to say it’s not there, but I’ve got, I’ve got some strong feelings and in particular, think it’s, I think it’s worth talking about like how we talk to parents about building confidence because
Speaker 2 (02:41.57)
The parents can say like, I want my student to be confident. And we could say like, we’re building confidence through music lessons. But then like, okay, how, how, like, what is, what does that, that even mean? so let’s see, let me look at my notes here. now conversely, I’ve also heard in my studio when maybe students
Exactly. What’s the path?
Speaker 2 (03:09.384)
are just starting on their instrument and I ask parents, well, what about what about our rock band program? How do you feel about that? What do you think your your your childhood like playing music with other kids? I’ve heard confidence used as a reason not to get involved with that. I’ve heard like, don’t know, I think I want them to build more confidence first.
before they go for the group experience.
Yeah, yeah. So kind of in my mind, those are like conflicting ideas. And I’m sure we’ll sort of get into to why. Yeah. Now you were telling me earlier before we started that in your studio, it’s more about like socialization.
Yes, that’s the word I hear a lot from my young parents. You know, we’re looking to socialize our kids. We want more socialization for our babies and toddlers. And I think that, you know, confidence is a big part of that, right? I think a great way to do that is forming community and socializing, making music, you know, what I do in a multi-age and multi-generational environment.
And I do see that. You have to, you got to just get in there. Some parents see their kids as really timid and this is a lot like your rock school situation, right? Your band situation. They get in and their child is too timid and they think, we’re not ready yet. You’ve got to get in and you have to practice these skills. They’re not just going to, you know, suddenly be there one day.
Speaker 2 (04:51.382)
Yeah, same thing. I think that’s where there might be a bit of confusion about what it means to build confidence and what it means to attain knowledge or build your knowledge base. Yeah. Now in your studio, I would guess that the parents are a little less worried about their eight month old learning how to read music. Yes.
Yep.
Which is clearly in my mind that’s like a building knowledge thing. But they are, you know, they are interested in them maybe learning how to clap their hands on beat.
Yeah, the knowledge that we’re building in this age group is, is yes, the basic music skills of, beat tonality, the socialization piece, language, all of those early childhood things. Yes. That’s a piece of it.
So I think, I believe, and I’ll reference an article a little bit later, but I believe that confidence and knowledge are actually two different things. And they can and they do influence one another. I think…
Speaker 2 (06:06.062)
it’s important, at least for us as music lesson providers to recognize that and see how the two interact. But, and this comes from an article that I read on Medium. And, you know, I know some people feel like, Medium, it’s like, you know, more opinions, but there’s more research to kind of back this up as well. So knowledge is the accumulation of facts and insight.
Whereas confidence is a person’s faith in their own talents and abilities, right? So again, going back to, to a parent who is just starting in their child and music lessons and they’re saying like, I want my, I want my child to be confident. Well, does that feel good about their abilities or is that also they want them to learn? I think it’s both.
We want both.
But it’s hard to articulate. And then when you think about just the act of learning a musical instrument, it’s almost this weird duality where, yes, there’s this intellectual side where you’re gathering information and you’re understanding the language of music, but then there’s that physical part of actually making the instrument work. We’re talking about like…
physical movements and muscle memory, implementing emotion into the playing, right? When you’re playing with others, simultaneously hearing and analyzing what you’re hearing and reacting to, that’s not really, that’s not knowledge. mean, think knowledge can support that, but it’s more instinctual and that’s more, I think, confidence. What do you think?
Speaker 1 (07:58.06)
Yeah. mean, learning the physical instrument, like I also think of it is obtaining knowledge. It’s, practicing and, learning how to make, make music through this physical. Yeah. Instrument. think of embouchure or finger positions, proper technique, right? Is that what you’re getting at?
getting up. I think it’s all of that. Yeah. And, and I think that’s why, you know, music is learning an instrument is very complex because it involves the physical aspects and the intellectual aspects. And that’s that, that, intersection between what we’re talking about with like the knowledge and how you put that knowledge to work for you, which then like builds confidence. It’s, it’s very complex, right? And so
Again, when we’re talking about that, the, that parent who maybe never played an instrument before, but they, they’re like, yeah, I heard if I put my kid in music lessons, that’ll build their confidence. So yeah, maybe, right. But there’s so much more to it. So I think because it’s so complex having a way for us to talk to parents about it and, sort of like unpackage the whole thing.
So that we’re all on the same page and they, they’ve, you know, we understand what they’re looking for. They understand what we’re providing and how it’s all going to work. Right. Because what a horrible situation if they’re like, yeah, I want my kid to be confident. And they’re assuming that’s 100 % just about reading music. And here I am over here like, well, yeah, that’s going to be part of it. But first we’re going to get them playing music and we’re going to build their confidence with how to use that, that instrument.
You know, we’re looking at that situation to opposite sides. So like both of us with good intentions, but if they’re like opposing viewpoints, then like the might not be happy.
Speaker 1 (10:04.46)
Yes. And if you can effectively communicate this with the parent, then they’re going to be able to support their student better. Yeah.
Right. So I think it is about, I think it is about like understanding that knowledge and confidence are two different things, but they kind of interact and they work in tandem. Okay. I referenced that article in medium. I can link to it in the show notes. It’s really short, but like what I liked about it was, they sort of broke down.
knowledge and confidence as like almost a little formula. Right? Yep. And I can even see this on like a on a graph, right? Where you’ve got the X and Y axis. Yeah, the X and Y axis. One axis is knowledge and one is confidence and like how how that would work. But so basically, there’s like kind of four quadrants. Yes. Right. So you’ve got
low knowledge and low confidence is kind of is one of them, right? So that means like, okay, I don’t know anything about this thing. And I’m certainly not confident about this thing. That’s where a lot of people start music lessons. Okay, then you’ve got low knowledge and high confidence.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:35.958)
That could be a starting point too. I’ve definitely seen kids who come in and they’re like, I don’t know anything about this instrument, but I’m going to be awesome.
Yep. There’s a lot of passion there. There’s excitement. mean, when I think of this, I think of the kindergartner at the talent show, you know, right on stage, belting it out, all wrong, but totally confident. Love that. Yes. That’s great. We can work with that.
Yep. So then you’ve got high, high knowledge, low confidence, right? So that’s going to be the kid who might be very reluctant to get on stage. That’s where stage fright is going to come into play. Yes. Actually, I just saw, I just saw a kid this week here at the rock school. The kid is he’s, he’s a guitar player. He’s about
I want to say 11, 12 years old. And this may not mean anything to you, Mandy, but in his private lessons, he’s working on the guitar solo for Symphony of Destruction by Megadeth. It’s hard. Okay. That’s what I’m saying. It’s like technically challenging guitar solo. He’s been in lessons for maybe six to nine months. And I said to him,
Michael, when are we gonna get you in band? And he’s like, ah, I don’t know, maybe I’m gonna get a little bit better. And I was like, oh my God. So that’s the epitome of someone who right now, high knowledge, low confidence, right? So there’s something going on with him where he just, maybe he’s nervous about playing in front of others, maybe he’s nervous about getting in that band room, but I feel like we gotta build his confidence.
Speaker 1 (13:28.066)
I find that challenging too. That’s a challenging student, but really exciting to work with that.
Yeah. Okay. And then the fourth, the fourth combination obviously is high knowledge, high confidence. And that’s, that’s where we want everyone to be. Yes. That’s like the perfect balance. Right. So there’s a lot of places we could kind of talk to parents about this, but
I mean, whether that’s at like kind of the beginning of the journey or like somewhere along the way in the journey. I want to focus on like the beginning, right? Number one. And I think we, we kind of talk about this a lot is parent education. Yeah. and we’re, we’re also advocating for, for the student again, because parents may not always know exactly what the kids need.
yeah, that’s what this is.
Speaker 2 (14:32.82)
So plus we’ve got to like understand what the students want and does that align with what the parents want? That’s a tricky one. Yeah. So let me reference my notes here. And again, we also have to understand what parents mean when they say confidence, right? So I don’t think it’s wrong to
you know, in those early stages, have that conversation with a parent and say, when they bring up confidence, right? yeah, like what does that, what does it mean? Like what does it look like for you when your child is gonna be confident in their instrument? know? Yeah. I say ask.
Yes. Yeah, that is great because it, you might be surprised at the answers that you get too. I would, I would say the ans, the answers I would give would vary, for my two children. Okay. Yeah, totally.
Mmm, okay. Knowing your two children, for sure one of them is like exudes confidence. Yeah. And the other one is a little bit more reserved.
Yeah. So I would have different goals for those two kids. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess, and if I could with my more reserved daughter, she’s taking lessons and she plays ukulele. And that has built her confidence. She’s not getting on stage. She’s not in a band.
Speaker 1 (16:07.56)
she feels so proud of herself. Yeah. You know, and she shares what she learns with, with family and friends. So that’s different than saying, I want my child to feel confident enough to learn, you know, a set of songs and get up on stage for the rock concert.
Do you think that, I mean, okay, this is kind of like me from the outside psychoanalyzing your child, but do you think she maybe internalizes that idea, like, okay, I want to attain this knowledge first, and then I want to, in my own safe space,
practice it and feel like I’ve got it down before I let that into the world and that’s how I reach confidence. Do you think that is it?
Probably.
Cause I think a lot of people would think that.
Speaker 1 (17:06.72)
Yeah. Yep. Okay. I can see that she works like that. can also, you know, her personality though is not one that wants to get on stage. Sure. It’s just not, which has surprised me throughout the years, you know? cause I’ve enjoyed performing and have been on stages. but she has said like, I think I would really enjoy being on the crew.
You know, for the musical, she wants to be backstage. and that, yeah, Hey, that’s exciting. And that’s confidence building. She’s part of a team and she’s doing something. So that’s fair. Right. Totally fair.
Well, and I don’t necessarily think that someone who’s like, no, I don’t want to be on stage is lacking in confidence. don’t think that’s necessarily like hard and fast. No, that’s a, you know, that’s kind of a personal choice. I guess where I’m coming from related to what I do and in talking with parents.
You know, if someone’s like, well, no, they don’t want to be on stage. Period. Okay. I respect that. But I also think there’s a lot to be said for, peer to peer interactions, building confidence. for a kid in our rock band program on a weekly basis,
What they’re doing is they’re not only are they’re getting in there and they’re playing with other kids, but they’re there’s like this immediate comparison, right? Where they can sort of judge like, okay, are these mistakes that I’m making?
Speaker 2 (18:57.27)
mistakes that no one else is making and usually answers no. Right. So what they’re seeing is like those mistakes and those those things that they may be hyper critical about with their own playing. They’re seeing everyone else make. Right. Not only that, they’re seeing other kids maybe make mistakes that they don’t make anymore. And those little things, those little touch points that they have with other kids throughout their band rehearsals and throughout the weeks before they get on stage.
Those are all helping to build confidence. Yeah. Or even like, maybe they make a mistake in rehearsal and no one even hears it because there’s an entire band playing. That’s going to build confidence when you, when you put that in parallel with them making a mistake in a private lesson in front of an instructor who they never see make mistakes. You know, so that I think those
Mm-hmm. Right?
Those peer-to-peer interactions are huge for building confidence.
Absolutely. Yeah. And they, as they move through, you know, the session, the, weeks, the months, and they find themselves becoming more comfortable and they’re working together and they’re, these are social skills too, right? We do more than just make music here, right? Right. That’s all going to build their confidence. And I’ll touch on my, daughter again. so she, she likes to sing.
Speaker 1 (20:29.486)
So she plays ukulele and sings. And so she thought she would join the choir and she auditioned for the choir and she got in. And the week before it started, she was like, no, no, no, I changed my mind. changed my mind. I’m not going do it. said, Hey, you, you, you got a spot you’ve committed. I want you to try this, right? You just have to try it. She totally fell in love. Right. And so from my previous comments, I didn’t want, didn’t want you to think that I didn’t think like group.
music making on the stage was for her, but working, you know, being part of a group on the stage, right? Totally fell in love with it, right? Making music with the group and being on stage. She’s not going to take a solo, right? She’s not going to take a solo and that’s fine, but she is creating with her peers and you know, creating, making this music on stage.
Right. But if, if a kid never takes that step and they, they perpetually live in that mindset where it’s like, no, I need more knowledge. I need more knowledge. Then that confidence is never going to improve. Right. yeah, when, when a kid or a parent is stuck in that, that mindset of like high, high knowledge, low confidence,
I knew she would regret it.
Speaker 2 (21:56.01)
If you don’t employ techniques to, to like build the confidence, then you’re always going to have that imbalance. going back to the idea of like, how well, do we talk to parents about that? Again, it’s two things. It’s two things that work together, you know, and we’re constantly tweaking it to find that balance. Right? So in a private lesson situation, well, that’s a way better.
scenario to focus on the knowledge. Right? So if you’ve got a student who is maybe like low knowledge, high confidence, okay, well in private lessons, well, let’s focus on like, I hate to say it, but let’s focus on the studying a little bit more, know? Because that’s what private lessons can do. But also, you know, that peer to peer learning again, I think there is like, there’s something to be said for the
the knowledge that they’re going to attain from working with a group, right? Because again, they’re seeing others play instruments that are different than theirs and how they’re applying the same knowledge that, like, you know, if I’m talking about a guitar player and he sees a drummer, well, fundamentally they’re…
both playing rhythms, they’re both playing like specific types of notes in terms of length and value. You know, seeing how they apply these things is also going to build that knowledge base. Flip side, right? If you’ve got a kid who is maybe like high knowledge, low confidence, like we were talking about, I advocate for more doing more experiential learning, more playing with peers.
That’s again, that’s the ensemble and choir, right? That’s band programs, social interactions centered on music.
Speaker 1 (23:51.746)
Yeah. Yeah. Like the, the guitar player you were talking about, you know, I think that it is really worth, it’s a, it’s a worthwhile cause trying to get him into that group. Right. And so this is where that parent education piece can come in, where you can have that conversation with the parents. Like he’s doing great. You know, this is, he’s got this.
Mm-hmm.
we would love to see him blossom in one of the groups and this is how it works. And you know, if you don’t want to take the solo right away, but there’s a lot to be learned here and yeah. Cause I think that once they do get into that group, um, yeah, it just like they they’ll blossom even more. Oh, one.
percent, right? Because then
Again, you’re absolutely right. You take that kid who has already is like a high, high knowledge, low confidence kid. And all of a sudden they have an application for that knowledge. Well, then it compounds on itself. Right? You see like how quickly you can apply that knowledge and then like learn from, from doing. Yeah. Fingers crossed for Michael. Fingers crossed. I did have that conversation with his mom on Wednesday and.
Speaker 1 (25:06.328)
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:11.952)
you know, we’ve got a spot for him in this, in this summer session. So we’ll see, we’ll see how it goes. really, really helpful, hopeful. Um, so again, going back to like how to talk to the parents about this, um, this is an ongoing thing with, with, think all parent education, but like small steps, right? This is a long game, what we’re doing and
Yes, we can focus on like kind of the more studious knowledge building stuff. Yes, we can focus on the application and the building their confidence and pumping them up, but it’s a constant give and take, right? And I think that’s where the parents need to hear that.
how they would go about it, which is, you I feel like I’m harping on the idea of like the parents who think that it’s all knowledge first and that’s what’s going to build experience. And I feel like I’m harping on that because I experienced that more in my studio. But telling them that like, no, there’s two things, right? And we can constantly adjust. Yeah. Where
Okay.
Speaker 2 (26:37.068)
the instances where I have the like the high confidence, low knowledge, that’s usually the kid. It’s rarely the parent, right? It’s usually like, it’s usually the kid that we sort of have to reel him in a little bit. Now, but don’t
Don’t we always say like, I’d rather have too much than too little. Give me too much and I can work with that.
And again, in the man, it’s, I’m going to bring it up again, because I just believe in it so strongly in, in the band rehearsals, right? That kid who comes in there super confident and maybe doesn’t know everything that they think they know. Yeah. Yet. Yet. They’re going to find out pretty quick. Yeah. You know, again, because that they have other people in that group to look at.
Yet…
Speaker 2 (27:33.726)
And that usually keeps them in check, right? But I do love those kids. And I think it’s worth mentioning these, these two, again, we want that, we want that balance. want high knowledge, high confidence, but I think it is worth mentioning that these quadrants that are those other two, like the high knowledge, low confidence or
Yes, so great.
Speaker 2 (28:03.082)
low knowledge, high confidence. We have those terms for them, right? So, high knowledge, low confidence. That’s we call that imposter syndrome, I think. Right? Yeah. So that, that comes into play, the, opposite one where you’ve got low knowledge, but really high confidence. And I certainly wouldn’t like label this for the kids, but, you know, there’s a lot of talk about
Dunning-Kruger effect. I think that’s where that quadrant is. But again, it’s all about finding that balance.
And I think I want to go back to talking to the parents about this. Yeah. An important thing to consider and relate to them is that this is a really safe space. This is a safe space. We are not, we’re not going to send your kids out there if they’re not ready. Right. That’s not going to happen. In my world, you know, in my experience, I can maybe relate this to like a choir directing a choir, right? We’re getting close and
something’s not clicking. We make adjustments, right? As directors, as coaches, like we’re going to make adjustments so that these kids have a good experience. is a safe space. That’s really important for the parents to know. In my early childhood world, like we mentioned, socialization is the word that I hear a lot. We want to socialize the kids can, you know, and they might come in a first class and their, their child is really quiet, reserved. Maybe they cry, you know, maybe they’re
nervous. And then the parent says, you know, this isn’t for us. Well, like we’re not ready yet. We’ll, we’ll be back. But I have to let them know, like, actually I’d, I don’t think that’s what they need. I think they need, they need to be here so that they can, um, join our community, you know, one or two classes isn’t going to do it. Stick with it. And then, and the,
Speaker 1 (30:05.88)
their confidence within the space, you know, the studio space that we have and their interactions with other kids and their interactions with other adults will grow and bloom. But if you remove them from the space, the learning also ceases.
Right. Right. And I know from our conversations, you will do demo classes and sometimes you’ll have classes that like are people who are already familiar with the curriculum. Right. And so maybe those brand brand new people might not want to come to those classes with the people who really experienced already.
And in those cases, I always make a point, like, I’d like them to come see an existing class because they can see what, you know, like this little, the thriving community looks like what it’s supposed to look like. But I’ll say, Hey, it’s totally normal that, you know, Susie behaved this way today. mean, honestly, as an adult, isn’t it kind of weird coming into this space and everyone’s like singing and dancing together. Imagine how Susie feels. And then I’ll point around the room and I’ll say, well, see Billy.
started before he could walk. And I let them know, like, these people around you have been here a long time. That’s what it takes. Right? You know, don’t, don’t give up.
We do the same thing when I give tours and have people come in to check out a band rehearsal. If we are like two weeks out from our performance and I give a tour, I do the same thing. say, they’re like…
Speaker 2 (31:46.158)
four months in here, right? So these songs that they’re playing, they’ve been working on these for the last three to four months. They’re about to perform. This is about as good as it’s going to be in two weeks from now when we start a new session, they’re all going to be fumbling through everything. You know, they’re all going to be starting from, from beginning. So don’t feel intimidated. It’s, it’s all a process.
Yep, as we build the knowledge and confidence. Right. Yep, together.
Yes. So there you go. That’s how to talk to parents about confidence.
Safe space too. Yeah. Very nurturing safe spaces here. Right.
Well, I think we’re going to wrap that one up and we will talk to you next time.
Speaker 1 (32:30.518)
Thanks, John. Cool.
If you have topic suggestions or questions, please contact us at info at RockSchoolProprietor.com. We’d love to hear from you and consider suggestions for the show. We’ve put together some free resources for teachers and studio owners over at RockSchoolProprietor.com. And we’ve got a private Facebook group, performance based music programs and rock schools. Please join us over there. On social, I’m at rock.school.proprietor on Instagram and John Kazicki on both LinkedIn and Blue Sky. Your ratings and reviews on Apple Podcasts
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