On this episode of Rock School Proprietor Podcast, John Kozicki (Michigan Rock School and RockSchoolProprietor.com) and Mandy York (Music Time of Milford) engage in a spirited debate on the necessity of teaching note reading in today’s world. They explore their differing musical backgrounds and ponder whether reading music is essential for students or if playing by ear and leveraging modern technology replace the need for note reading.
In this episode:
- historical perspectives of reading music and the evolution of music education
- how icons like The Beatles and Pavarotti found success without reading music
- why reading rhythms is universal and may be more important than reading notes on the staff
Finally, they discuss the implications for music educators and students alike, striving to find a balance between maintaining the art of reading music and embracing new teaching techniques.
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Episode Transcript:
John Kozicki (00:05.736)
episode of Rock School Proprietor podcast Mandy and I have a healthy debate about reading music and we ask the question do we actually need to teach students how to read music? We go over the pros and cons we talk about how technology has played a role in the need for written music. Stay tuned for our discussion after this.
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John Kozicki (01:29.41)
Welcome to Rock School Proprietor podcast. I’m John Kozicki. And I’m Mandy York. Mandy, a couple of weeks ago we were talking and you asked me why should we teach kids how to read music? And you think we should. I do. Spoiler alert. Yep. Yep. And I’m not totally sold. Which
Coincidentally, I think it’s part of why we started doing this podcast in the first place, because our backgrounds are different. You come from a background where it’s like, of course, of course you would learn how to read music. And I come from a background where it’s a bit more casual and like, do you really need to read music to play music? So.
We’re going get into that today. Do you think we’re going to think we’re going to strongly disagree with one another? I don’t know. We’ll see. I mean, that’s why we do this. Like because of our different backgrounds and then the coming together, sharing ideas and, like I said, I think more about these things because of our proximity and my daughter being in your, your rock school and stuff. And my bad influence on her. This is great. It makes us think and.
even if I do disagree with you strongly, I will be able to, I’ll really establish my why I feel this way. Can you go into a little bit more detail about what made you pose that question or what got you thinking about why should we teach reading music? Why should we not? know, because like you said, it’s just a given, you know, that, yeah, I’m a musician. We learn to read music.
It was something I had heard. someone was kind of marveling over the fact that the Beatles couldn’t read music. yes. Okay. Right. Right. And I, to be clear, like, I don’t know if that’s true or not. Totally could be. I would believe it, but someone had said that and it, got my wheels turning. because sure. They were, I were huge Beatle fans at my house. Love the Beatles and
John Kozicki (03:52.064)
I wouldn’t say that they’re, that they’re any less amazing because they couldn’t read music. It made me think of, Pavarotti Luciano Pavarotti, one of the world’s most famous tenors. He famously could not read music. Okay. So he, he learned by rote. had a good ear. Right. is that’s, that’s interesting. You brought that up because it’s oftentimes that more
classical side, the traditional side, where reading music is important. And that’s one of the most famous classical musicians. Sure. And I think you’re right, it is more common for contemporary artists to maybe not know how to read and play by ear. Yes. So we have these two, two musicians on, you know, far sides of the scale.
Right. Each side. And then I thought about my dad too. My dad is a really great guitar player, acoustic guitar. He’s a lovely musician. He plays super well. He’s self-taught before there was YouTube and has an incredible ear and he does not read music. know? So this is who I grew up with. This was my example. Okay. Taking all this into account.
Why should we teach kids to read music then? It’s a good, good question. I don’t know if I have an answer. All right. I kind of tend to think like, maybe we shouldn’t. what we should be teaching them is how to make music and how to play music first.
and read music later. Because I think that’s sort of what this all comes down to a little bit, right? It’s chicken or the egg. Yeah, yeah. And I think it is very common in like the rock schools to place the playing music and teaching how to play that instrument first and then reading music.
John Kozicki (06:11.489)
if it becomes important later, and maybe it never becomes important. Whereas in the more classical tradition, again, it’s like, well, why wouldn’t you start with the reading and the writing first? All right. So I definitely have thoughts. One of the first things I, I thought of, and I’ve, I’ve contemplated this a lot. I’ve asked a lot of people this same question.
So I’ll ask you, do you think that Beethoven would have written down his works if he had access to modern recording equipment that we have today? Because I sort of look at it as
do what was the purpose of writing the music down.
I’m assuming it was to communicate with other musicians to have a record of it. Yeah. Right. Because we didn’t, there wasn’t recordings. So the only way to hear the music was to play it. aside from memory, like how, how would you, if, if you’ve got like a little quartet that you’re playing with, how do you communicate with the other players that this is what we’re playing unless there’s something written. Right.
He writes down the music to share with the players so that they can all read the music together as an ensemble. Yeah. Right. Yeah. OK, so what’s the alternative? Well, in modern day, you record it and you distribute the recording and maybe, you know, rough out the charts. Here’s the chords I’m playing. Have at it. Learn this song. Right. Well, I think that that’s
John Kozicki (08:08.197)
That’s a difference in style and genre, right? I mean, is it in a string quartet, for example, they, you have to the notes in front of you. You have to play what’s on the page. Do you? Yes. Yes. I’m going to say yes, John. Yes, you do. Okay. Yes. I can.
I’ve never been in a rock band, so I can’t say. I mean, I know my daughter doesn’t sit with a music stand in front of her and her guitar.
John Kozicki (08:50.161)
Rhythm is important in her, in the band.
John Kozicki (08:58.801)
Are you having a hard time? Yeah. Can you see me over here? um, yes.
mean, this comparing the string quartet to the rock band, it’s just not the same thing. I mean, it’s not the same thing in how it sounds. But are the musicians any different? No, let me let me add this because I do think it’s important. While my perspective is one of questioning like, okay, do we actually need to do this?
I learned how to read music as a child also. I took piano lessons. Granted, it was not a good experience as we’ve talked about before, but I did learn how to read music. And because I learned how to read music on piano, I think it made it easier for me to, than when I got into middle school band, to learn a different instrument because I already had a bit of understanding about how to read music.
I do think it was beneficial for me because then that trailed into me picking up guitar. And at that point, maybe I didn’t necessarily need to read music. but at the same time, like you said, your, your father plays guitar and yeah, has never read music. Right. let’s talk about, let’s talk about different instruments. I’ve thought about this. Yeah.
And specifically guitar, because it’s hard to read music on guitar. one, because of how the notes are laid out on the instrument. When you when you read music on, a piano, you you see one note on the staff and there’s one key that is associated with that. And on guitar, you have multiple places to play that one note. So
John Kozicki (10:59.311)
that makes it a lot more complicated to focus on reading and learning an instrument at the same time. So I do think that that becomes a barrier to being able to play the instrument. So maybe again, from my perspective, if we’re talking about guitar, like, maybe, maybe you should play first and then figure out the reading later because otherwise it’s a much longer road. And I’ve considered this too.
I thought, well, music reading is so important to me because I’m reading one soprano line. I’m reading the one flute line, right? Yeah. When I picked up the ukulele as an adult, I don’t, I just write the chords above the song. Do you know what I mean? I’m not, yes, I’m not, I’m not reading notes. I’m, know. Well, yeah. And let’s talk about chords on piano.
I’ve seen enough times in my life, people who play piano and can play a chord, but they can’t necessarily understand how to put those chords together to play a song. They can just read what’s on the So they read the notes that are stacked up and they’re able to play those, those three notes or you know, whatever.
And that creates a chord, but there’s a disconnect between what those three notes are and what that chord is. that, you know, is that beneficial? mean, yeah, okay. They’re reading music, but are they making that next step with connecting how music works? Right? No, yes. And I have thought of this too. I have notes on this that, I.
I am glad I can read music and it helps me learn faster when I’m learning new pieces.
John Kozicki (13:03.697)
But I do wish that I had a better ear and better like, improvisational skills. Right. And I think that’s kind of what you’re getting at, right? With being able to know like, here are the chords that work and, you know, developing a, playing a song with them. That’s what you mean on the piano. Yeah. Yeah. The way it was described to me by someone at one point who was a very accomplished piano player.
He said when you are so reliant on the music and reading the music you can become very good at at at seeing the music on on the page and knowing what keys to play But at that point you’re kind of just playing a typewriter Right, it’s almost like dictating. Yeah. Yeah So I thought about drum music also
If I put drum music in front of you, would you have any idea what’s going on? I’m certain I wouldn’t. And I mean drum set music. I’m certain I would not know anything about what’s on the It’s a completely different thing. So it’s strange because it looks like any other sheet music, kind of. Yeah. I mean, I can read rhythms, but I’m so curious what…
You’ll have to give me an example. The different drums are on different lines and spaces. So yeah, the rhythmic notation is the same, but those lines and spaces no longer mean notes anymore. They mean specific drums. So it’s like relearning, you know, or a drummer who can read wouldn’t be able to go sit at the piano and play.
It’s like a different dialect. Yeah. Okay. So going back to like the history thing, because I still get hung up on, I still get hung up on the reading and writing as kind of more of a necessity to be able to share a composer’s work with other people. And I sort of feel like, well, maybe it’s that
John Kozicki (15:31.161)
of tradition that makes us feel like yes this is important in spite of new technology right but another point that i had was music existed before written music yes yeah you’re you’re right yeah so what did they do then music yes you’re right it existed before notation and it was
folk music and music of the people. It was…
John Kozicki (16:07.097)
It was a way to pass down traditions and stories, right? And histories. I would say that it was not consistent, right? That these melodies and well, they did, they changed and evolved because they weren’t written down. writing music, you know, putting it
using notation, maintains or preserves the original intention of the music. Okay. Whereas before we had that, would, the melodies would change a little bit depending on the, the, area, right? Geography or different scales and over time as they were passed down. to, to circle back to the original question though, with that in mind,
why should we teach reading and writing music if it’s existed for longer than if music has existed for longer than reading and writing music has existed right i did a i did a search because i didn’t know i was like well how long has music been well the there’s different viewpoints but it seems to be around 1400 bc is the estimate of the earliest known written
written music. you know, we’re talking about like 3500 years. that’s a, mean, in the grand scheme of things, right? It’s not that long. And I would argue that like, well, right now there’s probably more people who don’t read music than play, sure. Then do read music. So is it just that reading and writing music is part of history, but it’s gone.
No, no. I think that I want to go back to that idea that it’s writing it down, like preserves the quality and the intention of the music. If you don’t write it down, it could be lost. It could be changed. it’s easier to share that way. Now for what it’s worth.
John Kozicki (18:35.025)
We weren’t, you know, we weren’t writing books either. Our spoken language wasn’t written down. Our stories weren’t written down. But I would say that that’s a pretty important thing. Not to get too hot button, but Are you going to say something about AI? No, I was going to talk about
recorded history and having a record and you know current day even that stuff can be Debated right but
John Kozicki (19:16.497)
We. I know it is tough. is. It’s really interesting. It’s tough. So other things that I thought about when when it comes to writing music and the idea of like physically writing it on a page, can plug a MIDI keyboard into my computer and play something and it will give me a transcription of whatever I play. Yes.
I didn’t actually write it, right? So maybe I don’t even need to know how to write it. The computer is, is generating that stuff. Yes, I’m playing it, but the computer is doing the work of figuring out what are the, what are the notes that I’m playing? What are the rhythms that I’m playing? is there benefit in that to get it recorded? It, you know, having that recorded record of
of the music or is it, or are you still taking that hard line? Like, well, no, you should know how to write it down. Well, no, think that’s legit. Like you’re still composing the music. Even if you didn’t physically pick up the pencil and write it on the third line of the treble clef, right? You’re still, you’re still composing the music on your instrument and transcribing it. But do I think that it’s important that you get it on the page?
in some most circumstances, yes, because that’s your written record. That’s how you will share it. But if I don’t know how to write music and read music notation, and I take that route, am I cheating? No. No? Because I don’t know how to write notation, but I know how to play the computers doing it for me.
John Kozicki (21:13.169)
call it cheating. I mean we’re talking about art John. Yeah. I mean we are. Can you really I suppose you can cheat in art but like you like I said you created the music. You did. You created it. So. Just because the computer put it on the page for you doesn’t mean you cheated. Okay to bring it back around to should we teach reading and writing notation.
If we have that at our disposal and we just tell our students, we’re not going to worry about how to write it. We’re not going to worry about how you read it. We’re going to teach you how to play it and we’re going to let the computer do it. So not really teaching it. You know, maybe.
If someone wants to pick up a guitar like my dad and make the music and really, for example, he, as an example, is someone that just really worked on his craft. That’s not cheating. That’s not any less of a musician. Okay. Like to be clear. But do I lean on the side of, you know, pro reading music?
Yes, in most circumstances, I…
It’s, it’s the, it’s our, it’s our language. You know, I can, someone can give me a piece of music and I can take it to the piano and learn it. You know, this is a way of passing it on to me. Someone I can sit down next to somebody, you know, and we can, we can play, we can sight read a piece of music together. you talked about.
John Kozicki (23:11.087)
When we should, when should we teach them? should we start making music first and then worry about reading music? That is an interesting question. And I feel like we’ve talked about this before a little bit with like, with, technique and habits, like, should I teach you to sing that high note right now? And you know, just go for it. Or do I need to make sure that you’re using a
good technique so I don’t hurt your vocal cords. Should we just start playing the notes on the piano and make sure they’re accurate? Or should I make sure that you’re using correct posture so we don’t build in a bad habit? If I don’t teach you, if I just say, well, later we’ll teach you how to read the notes. Are we ever going to get there? Right?
I’m not as, I mean, I was playing the role, I think, right now of like, okay, I’m going to make Mandy squirm. I am a big, big fan of teaching students how to read rhythms. Note value and understanding rhythm is to me, it’s huge. Whether or not, like, again, I come from, you know, the perspective of
guitar really. So whether or not we’re focused on reading those notes on the staff, I’m less concerned with because there are workarounds. But I do like teaching rhythms because that’s something that can apply to every single instrument, right? As we said, like reading guitar music is complicated. Reading piano music a little bit more simple. Reading drum music is its whole separate thing, right? So, but
If someone knows how to read rhythms, well then it’s easier to then figure out what’s going on on these other instruments. I also think reading rhythms is hugely beneficial in developing someone’s ear. Because when you can hear a rhythm, then you’re halfway there to figuring out what is the rest of it if you’re playing by ear, right? Then you’re talking about pitch, you’re talking about chords or whatever it is.
John Kozicki (25:35.301)
so I’m a huge, huge proponent of, of teaching students how to read rhythms. And as someone that doesn’t teach rock band and doesn’t have a full understanding of how that all works, what you’ve said, that makes sense to me. And I appreciate that because it is so rhythm based. And if these, if your students can read the rhythms and play cleanly, right? Cause you want them playing.
in rhythm. Well, that’s that makes sense to me. musician though, like half the battle is playing in time. Yeah. Every single instrument, every single style, every single musician. So rhythms are so, so important. And I’d also argue that from, the non-musician perspective of someone in the audience,
If you’re listening to a band or an orchestra or whatever, and someone plays a wrong note pitch, maybe it’ll be heard. Maybe not. If someone breaks the rhythm, if that rhythm is interrupted, everyone feels it. So I think rhythms are almost more important than anything else. Now I do have reasons.
I was thinking about reasons we should teach reading or maybe like you were talking about when, when do we teach reading? I think if, I do think if someone loves classical music and that’s what they want to focus on. Well, absolutely, absolutely. Because it’s, there’s just so much more benefit in understanding how to read music. have access to so much more.
If you understand how to read music, it’s almost like, if you don’t read music and you want to play classical music, you’re not going to be able to do it. so if someone is interested in pursuing some sort of, they want to play in an orchestra where it’s more common for people to hand out and out music. Yeah. Yeah. I think reading music is an important skill.
John Kozicki (27:58.844)
Um, if someone is thinking that they want to study music in, in college or some sort of higher education, well, yeah, you’re to need to know how to read music. Um, if someone’s thinking about becoming, you know, like a high school band director or like a choir director, or they want to teach in university or whatever. Yeah. You gotta read music. There’s all these other.
reasons for yes, reading music. I think it comes down to the why. Like why are, why is this individual person learning music? Yes. If they’re learning it for their own personal enjoyment.
It might not be that important. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I’m going to use my dad again. It’s for personal enjoyment. I grew up with him playing at the house, um, lots of family weddings, events, and currently he’s, he’s got a standing gig every week. He plays, know, out in public. He’s that for what he does, he’s, he’s got it going on. He doesn’t need to read music. Right. Um, I,
you know, for what I do, the performing that I’ve done and the teaching that I do, you know, I don’t need to read music to teach preschoolers. Right. But it’s something I use when I teach a choir, you know, I sit at a piano and I play their parts. Right. I have to be able to do that. I should note though, too, I teach for my early elementary kids, well, elementary age.
I teach by rote a lot, you know, I really do. So here’s something I teach songs by rote for elementary choir. but the music is always there. I don’t always put it in their hands because, gosh, I’m going to sound like John. I don’t put it in their hands because I feel like it will be a distraction from just learning rhythm and, and melody.
John Kozicki (30:13.621)
But I do put it in their hands occasionally so they can see the shape of the music. I think it’s important for kids to see that, to look at that. They see the shape of the music. They see the rest. When I am having difficulty with a passage, a musical passage, I can listen to it.
And it will not stick as well as if I look at it on the page. That’s not, I’m just making the point of like, I’m a visual learner. Right? So it’s not that because I read music, I, I learned the passage better than someone else. It’s because I’m visual. Maybe listening is going to be more beneficial to others. So that’s another point, right? Who needs to be able to read music?
I don’t know. It’s good for me. Right. And yeah, it, when I’m in front of a number of students, I think it’s great to teach by rote. But then also for some of those, may be really beneficial for them to look at the page and see the arc of the melody and the break where there’s rests. Yeah. Well, and to that point, we do a, we do a band program for elementary age kids and we do the same thing. We have like re
We have play along videos that the kids use and there’s notation that they play along to. It’s also like for guitar, there’s also tablature and there’s other tricks that we use. But yes, the notation’s there for them to make that connection. Whether or not that sticks right away is not necessarily important because our goals are different in those classes. Our goals are getting them to play as a band and put on a
performance and even then even in the performances we encourage the kids to memorize. Yeah. Get away from the reading. Don’t use that as a crutch. And I’ve definitely seen also where students play better when they’re not focused on the music on the page. Yes. Yeah. I completely agree with that. I’d say across the board. Totally.
John Kozicki (32:39.413)
Did I convince you? No. I wanted to make one more point. No, I want to make one more point. It’s and it is again related to guitar. My biggest guitar tablature is kind of the work around and for for guitar players. And I think I think it developed because of how complicated it is to read music on on the page on the staff for guitar.
So the series of lines and numbers which represent the frets, it basically tells you where to put your fingers. My biggest issue with guitar tablature is if there is no rhythmic notation associated with that. mean, you… Millions of guitar tabs online, there’s a little exclaimer at the beginning, like, okay, here’s the tab, just listen.
Just listen to the song and do it like that. You know, it’s telling you where to put your fingers, but it’s, that’s all it’s telling you where, what to do. So, um, there is that benefit again, it goes back to the, understanding, uh, how to read rhythms. Um, so I didn’t convince you. Yeah, that’s funny. When I picked up, I talked about picking up ukulele as an adult. I remember struggling with that. I was like, okay, but what about a strumming pattern? What do I do? Yes. Yeah.
Interesting. Yeah. No, you didn’t convince me, John. But I think, um, again, there’s a little bit of a meeting in the middle here. Like it doesn’t, not being able to read music doesn’t necessarily make you any less of a musician. I don’t think anyone that criticized, because people did criticize Pavarotti for his lack of being able to read, you know, was
uncalled for. know, that’s yeah. And I mean, I don’t know who criticized him, but you know what? Maybe that was coming from a place of like jealousy, right? That guy, maybe he can sing really well, but he doesn’t know how to read music. Right. Yes. And there, you know, there can be a little, a level of maybe snobbery in that world too. But you know what it was, he wasn’t cheating to use your word, right? It was his instrument and he was producing the sound.
John Kozicki (35:00.417)
I also think that not being able to read music or not being like not being able to read music well in your early stages, it shouldn’t become this this roadblock for you to enjoy playing music and enjoy learning music. You know, there’s so many other ways you can learn how to play music and enjoy music, even if you can’t read.
And I think that’s super important. You know, I necessarily think it should be this prerequisite to having access to what is, you know, like for your father, for instance, a lifelong enjoyable thing that he does, you know, that shouldn’t be a roadblock. It shouldn’t be a deterrent. Yeah, I’m, I’m not totally anti obviously there’s lots of reasons I think reading music is important.
and we should teach it in certain instances. I think it’s just the why. Like why is this person interested? And do we need to make them learn music, learn to read music or encourage them to read music? Yeah. I tell my clients, my parents, when the kids get older and they start to take lessons, I do always remind them it needs to be fun in the beginning, right? We need to
hook them in the beginning. And if those music notation flashcards or whatever else their teachers having them do to drill like note naming and reading music is a hindrance and it’s a burden, then maybe that’s not what they should be doing. Yeah. Then, right? Yeah. And just focusing on creating the music and the enjoyment of it. Yeah.
don’t be that person. No, don’t be the roadblock right up there. yeah. this was an interesting discussion. I liked it a bit more. I don’t know, but more philosophical, I guess than, than we always get philosophical, but all right, well let’s wrap it up. I, again, I think, yeah, there’s a time and a place. my big, big point is like, don’t make reading music a
John Kozicki (37:26.452)
roadblock to enjoyment and success. I agree. But there is a time and a place. Yes, and it can be very useful. And I use it all the time. And I’m making sure my children can read music. All right. For the record. We’ll see you next time. Bye.
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