In this episode of the Rock School Proprietor Podcast, John Kozicki (Michigan Rock School and RockSchoolProprietor.com) and Mandy York (Music Time of Milford) explore the concept of future-proofing music lessons, ensuring they offer more value than readily available online resources like YouTube tutorials, and the prospective threat of AI-driven music instruction.
In this philosophical discussion, John reads from his ‘manifesto’ about the impact of social media, AI, and the abundance of online information on traditional music lessons. Mandy and John discuss how music instructors can adapt by highlighting the irreplaceable human connection, emotional depth, and sense of community that in-person lessons provide.
Through the lens of music’s magic and the importance of shared experiences, this episode challenges instructors to emphasize the emotional and social benefits of music, encouraging them to market these unique aspects effectively. John and Mandy share how to stay relevant and thrive in an AI-enhanced future.
Join our private Facebook group, “Performance-Based Music Programs and Rock Schools,” a community for like-minded professionals to connect and share insights.
Episode Transcript:
John Kozicki (00:01.583)
Welcome to Rock School Proprietor Podcast. I’m John Kozicki.
Mandy York (00:06.616)
I’m Mandi York.
John Kozicki (00:09.238)
Mandy, had sent you this week an email. I kind of went on a little like, I started writing this thing about the future of music lessons. It almost felt like a manifesto. Like it felt kind of like a rant. And it was really inspired by what I was feeling about my interactions in the online world.
Mandy York (00:22.029)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (00:37.538)
And it was negative, to be honest. I’m going to read my opening sentence from my notes as sort of a jumping off point. But I think we’re going to get really philosophical. I think we’re going to get deep. I think we’re going to talk about things like AI and social media and what impact that has on what I think, how it’s going to impact music lessons. But
I also think that we can, as I put it, future proof our music lesson experience. Just before I read this, what was your initial reaction when I sent you this? Or did you not have any?
Mandy York (01:20.237)
I was like, wow, this is long. I started reading. I was like, okay, here we go. Read in and like, and I did like one of my notes here says yikes in the, you know, some of the AI rant. But I mean, times are changing and I’m, I’m ready to talk about this stuff. I think, you know, your point of the future, how it’s going to affect music lessons. I also
John Kozicki (01:22.835)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (01:31.868)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (01:48.341)
I want to talk about how it makes us more valuable, all of these things that are happening.
John Kozicki (01:51.308)
Sure, exactly. And at first I wasn’t sure I wanted to read this first part because I kind of referenced that like we’re living in a dystopian future or we might almost be there. But then I thought, you know what? I come from a punk rock background. Let’s not shy away from that. Okay, so I’m gonna read this. As our online world, in particular social media and the ways in which
Mandy York (02:00.939)
Yeah.
Mandy York (02:08.683)
Right, no.
John Kozicki (02:17.961)
internet searches and interactions begin looking more and more like the dystopian future. I believe there are essential actions that we as music lesson providers can and should take to set ourselves up for success. We are future-proofing music lessons from obsolescence. So obsolescence, what I was kind of referring to is
the amount of information that we have available to us online. And as it relates to music lessons, I’m talking in part about YouTube videos and tutorials, like knowledge is everywhere, which is a positive, I think. But as more and more knowledge becomes available, we also get inundated with stuff that’s kind of like, how relevant is it? Is it, is it?
Mandy York (03:03.245)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (03:16.929)
good information or is it poor information, right? So someone who is learning music may not be able to decipher what’s good versus what’s bad. And then we got to talk about how AI is going to impact music lessons as well. And we’ve done that once already with, I think it was episode 17 with Sam Ready. So we talked a lot about how AI is going to change
music lessons. that’s that episode’s already available. But part of the takeaway from that is there is going to be a time when AI can teach you how to play a musical instrument and probably give you feedback on what you’re doing as you play your musical instrument.
And at that point, I think a lot of people might just say like, what do I need? What do I need music lessons from an instructor for?
thoughts.
Mandy York (04:30.933)
Yeah, no, I think you’re right.
I did love that episode with Sam. One takeaway there though was that the AI that he’s using and incorporating into music lessons is really supporting and enhancing what a lot of what he’s doing in person. And I’m supportive of that.
AI teaching music lessons and giving feedback. I mean, you’re right. It’s going to happen. Probably closer than I even realize. But I just, I don’t believe that it will. Music is so personal.
John Kozicki (05:28.619)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (05:32.083)
One piece of music played by five different musicians is going to sound different each way it’s played, right? There’s a lot of emotion and nuance in music. I just don’t think you can, that AI can teach that.
John Kozicki (05:42.642)
Yeah.
Mandy York (05:55.84)
It’s not going to be the same experience.
John Kozicki (05:58.252)
So I think you’re 100 % right.
Mandy York (06:01.677)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (06:04.075)
But…
Does a parent who maybe doesn’t have a background in music, doesn’t understand these things that we’re talking about and they’re looking for music instruction for their child, do they know that and understand how important that is? Because they’re making a choice on how am I going to ensure that my kid gets music lessons
I could pay whatever for these in-person music lessons with this instructor, or, wow, there’s this AI teaching app that I can download for $15 a month and my kid can take AI music lessons. I mean, I’m just making up these numbers, right? But point is, that’s a real thing. AI is, you know,
Mandy York (06:59.562)
Mm-hmm. yeah.
John Kozicki (07:06.005)
maybe coming for our jobs, right?
Mandy York (07:06.561)
Yeah. And I think it goes, you know, there’s a few different ways that this, that goes. either they, they sign up for the AI music lessons and it’s not a great experience. So the lessons are dropped within a couple months. The kid never picks up an instrument again. Right. That’s one scenario. Another scenario.
John Kozicki (07:33.685)
Right, which, and the parent might just say like, well my kid really didn’t like music.
Mandy York (07:38.089)
Yeah, or they weren’t good at it or yeah, they just that’s because they don’t know any better.
John Kozicki (07:40.533)
Yeah, yeah, which again, that’s like we encounter that. We encounter that in our everyday lives and it might not be that the kid doesn’t like music. It might just be that they had a bad instructor.
Mandy York (07:54.286)
Mm-hmm. But the parents aren’t going to know any better. Another scenario is that you have a very self-motivated kid, and they do kind of take off with an AI lesson. Maybe that leads to in-person lessons, where the parent says, wow, they’re really enjoying this. Let’s up our investment and get them into an in-person lesson. I’m trying not to be.
John Kozicki (08:11.595)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (08:22.605)
too negative about the whole situation. you know, taking a step back, I’m just hoping that an AI, more AI instructors out there means that more kids are getting music instruction, right? Because perhaps this student wouldn’t have an experience learning an instrument had it not been for, you know,
John Kozicki (08:24.961)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (08:51.093)
something that was more accessible to them and their parents.
John Kozicki (08:53.378)
Sure. Sure. And I don’t want to get all doom and gloom because while my inspiration for this rant was literally, I was just like, I think we are going to reach a point where most people just accept that what they view online isn’t real. Or at least they know that it wasn’t.
Mandy York (09:00.471)
Right.
John Kozicki (09:23.745)
created organically, right? So.
Mandy York (09:26.089)
Yeah, I mean, we’re questioning that all the time already. Yeah.
John Kozicki (09:29.237)
Right, right. So the content that we see from images and videos to text, right now we can sort of tell like, that’s an AI image, right? That’s a real image. But I totally see a world in which at least me, I expect when I go on, I feel like I’m almost there already with certain things. I go online and
information that I’m presented with, I question whether or not it’s valid, whether or not it’s real, whether or not it’s good information. That’s where I am right now. I can just see a world in which the assumption is like, yeah, we can go online, but if it’s anything that could be skewed by an opinion, well, I don’t know how reliable it is. So
Mandy York (10:27.105)
Hmm.
John Kozicki (10:27.989)
That’s what inspired all of this, but then…
I think what it really brings about is the question of, well, what is art? And music obviously is art and what is art supposed to do? And it’s supposed to be some sort of expression of emotion. And 100 % that is not, I don’t know. I hate to say it can never be replicated, you know? But that expression of emotion is something that is uniquely human.
Mandy York (11:00.351)
Yes, AI does not have emotion.
John Kozicki (11:01.521)
And I think, right, and I think that is where we have an opportunity as music instructors and music lesson providers is to start to look at those elements of what we do and help make those connections. As you were saying, like a parent has a choice. They could choose, or I guess we were both talking about it, they could choose in-person like.
music instruction with a real person or they could go for something online. And if they’re not presented with a difference between those two, then they might just choose it based on price and convenience, right? So the things that we believe about music, which are the important things about like emotion and all those other benefits.
those become important for us to frame our marketing, to highlight those aspects of what we do as opposed to just learning music, just a transfer of knowledge, right? So I think there’s a huge opportunity actually when we do start to shift from this mindset of music instructors where we are just transferring knowledge to let’s talk about
all these other things that we are doing through music that are going to be beneficial to like the human experience.
Mandy York (12:36.738)
Yes. Yeah. Mm That’s something I do. tell my families a lot because I have caregivers in the class with me and we’ve talked about this before. I’m always trying to educate them on why we do what we do. I’m always telling them that music is a really important part of the human experience. Like we’re here with our little our little ones because we want to give them the gift of music. We’re starting right now. We’re
John Kozicki (12:38.048)
Yeah.
Mandy York (13:07.327)
you know, I’m, this is very informal what I do, informal music training. We’re playing music together and it’s going to last their lifetime. Whether they go on to, you know, study or just know music, right? Knowing music is really something that we want for all of our kids to appreciate and know it.
John Kozicki (13:11.329)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (13:22.325)
Right, yeah.
John Kozicki (13:27.617)
Yeah, yeah. And again, this is where we lean into authenticity, right? We lean into all those things. I had a note on my outline about the pandemic and COVID-19 and what that taught us or what the takeaways should be, hopefully, because that’s all fresh, right? We know how
how our kids reacted to not having play dates and not having social interactions and not having their activities. We know how parents were impacted by that stuff. We now are even seeing like this, how do we find level ground in the work from home and working remote versus in-person work? know, how do you find that balance?
Mandy York (14:26.434)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (14:28.831)
the things that we learned from the pandemic, and I see these exacerbated as we move in to the future with the possibility of.
more AI, more information, us as music instructors, we as music instructors, we can provide social interaction, we can provide the connection to those emotional aspects of humanity through art and music. We can provide an avenue for anyone to tap into those human elements, right? It’s not just, you have to learn this many things or.
these many skills on your instrument before you can access that. You do that every day with your Music Together classes. We can teach people how to express themselves through music and find that connection. You can’t get that just from online knowledge, however AI is going to change music lessons.
So then the question is, well, how do we highlight those human connections in music lessons?
Mandy York (15:43.64)
Right? We need to do a good job with marketing, And marketing what we’re doing. I do that through educating parents on a weekly basis in our classes. Group classes are really important, I think. I think it’s important studios are offering group classes. That’s, I mean, when we talk about community, that’s it right there. And we’ve said it before, music is meant to be shared and played together.
John Kozicki (15:46.055)
Right? Yeah.
Mandy York (16:13.759)
So that’s where it all is headed, right? Working together, making music, either in a little music together class with the little ones on the floor or in your rock band, all of those things. That’s what we want to highlight.
John Kozicki (16:13.867)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (16:32.011)
So I see, like again, you’ve been doing this for, you’ve been, your studio has been running for 10 years, right?
Mandy York (16:40.215)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
John Kozicki (16:42.857)
So in a sense, you are ahead of the curve with that. well, I think, right?
Mandy York (16:49.197)
Yeah, well, I mean, it’s, parent education is really important and it’s not just…
The reason I talk about these things with my parents because it’s not just a fun thing to do on Monday mornings with your little ones. I really want them to understand. because grownups are involved, we’re building community with the caregivers too. I mean, talk about postpartum moms that need a little bit of community, right? Right there. That…
John Kozicki (17:06.987)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (17:21.023)
Yeah.
Mandy York (17:29.235)
I mean, research, this is a research based program I’m teaching. Research shows us that music learning supports all other learning too. So when we’re making music, are, it’s also helping our language development, social emotional skills. What is more like, you know, more of a bonding experience than sharing like a lullaby with your child, right?
John Kozicki (17:56.406)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (17:57.57)
We’re working on motor skills because we’re using our whole body. We’re putting beat in our feet and our arms and everything else. And then we are fostering creativity in kids. The way we, you know, change lyrics, change movements, ask for feedback, being creative and silly with music. And you do that with the big kids too, you know.
fostering creativity.
John Kozicki (18:27.169)
So yeah, yeah, can I ask you this? Because all of those things, well, not all of the things, but many of those things that you mentioned are home runs with early childhood development, right?
Mandy York (18:31.596)
Yeah.
Mandy York (18:43.117)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (18:46.08)
Like all parents are just, well maybe not all, but most of them are all about that stuff when your kid is a baby or a toddler and you really lean into that stuff. As they get older, and I wonder if in your situation, because you offer classes for the very little kids, but then you also offer classes for preschool to early elementary.
Is there a difference in your marketing for those two in terms of the things that you highlight? do you think it’s parents are still in that mode of thinking, that kind of earlier childhood development mode?
Mandy York (19:31.148)
I think it does change. maybe this why it’s so easy for me to kind of hook some of those families because they are so focused on the development, right? So when I can say, music helps all these other things. What happens is they’re with me for several years. And then as they get older, to answer your question, I think there is a change.
John Kozicki (19:46.261)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (19:59.842)
Mm.
Mandy York (19:59.928)
They’re not signing up for the older kid classes, particularly for, you know, some sort of like to have an impact on brain development. But at that point, the music is in the kids and they’re like, they just love it so much. We want to sign up for the next class. That’s all it, you know, they’re just, they’re fostering like the love of music in their kids by moving on to the next step.
John Kozicki (20:18.657)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (20:22.57)
Right.
John Kozicki (20:28.299)
Okay.
Mandy York (20:29.291)
Whether that’s me or piano lessons or rock band or something else, I think there is a change.
John Kozicki (20:34.048)
Okay. And to clarify, when you say, when you talk about older kids in your studio, you’re talking like five to seven ish, right? Seven, eight, five to eight year olds. Okay. Yeah. So which we serve those that, that age group in, in my studio at Michigan rock school also, but further as well. So in through elementary school, through middle school, through high school and
Mandy York (20:40.864)
Elementary.
Yeah, five to eight. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mandy York (20:58.915)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (21:04.703)
there’s a, I think a vast difference between those age groups and what those other social benefits are going to be and emotional benefits are going to be when it comes to music lessons compared to that very early childhood. So on my list here, I mentioned how one-on-one private lessons are really only the start.
Mandy York (21:21.325)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (21:32.748)
Like yes, you get that in-person experience. Yes, you can get that connection. Yes, you can talk with a real person about that musical connection and art and what that can do for you and to inspire others. But I think that’s the low-hanging fruit. And the other things on my list, and you mentioned some of these group classes that highlight interaction and socialization.
Do you think that’s still important in those older age groups like middle school, high school, but you just have to phrase it slightly different for marketing purposes, right? Like I talk about finding your people, right? Finding that community of like-minded kids. I talk about our program as team sports for kids who don’t like sports.
Right, so then people immediately understand what that means and all the benefits that you get from sports for maybe kids who aren’t into it, who aren’t athletic or whatever. Also on my list, band programs that focus on working together to achieve a shared goal. That’s super valuable for anyone, right, as you kind of move through life and you prepare to.
enter the adult world, you gotta be able to work with people and achieve goals. Also on my list, live performances that bring together even more people to experience music as a community, right? So having that audience, it’s like a, it’s a give and take, it’s a back and forth. The performers are giving, the audience is receiving with applause, the audience is giving and the performers are receiving. So it’s a mutual.
benefit. Literally any efforts that we can employ where we’re providing or creating experience, an experience that can never be replicated in the online world. There you go. So you can get creative with it, but maybe in the back of your mind, think, is this something that can be replicated online or is this uniquely
John Kozicki (23:57.044)
an in-person experience. And if it’s a uniquely in-person experience, well, I say, go for it.
Mandy York (24:03.521)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, our kids aren’t going to be signing up for virtual soccer teams, right? We understand that this is an in-person activity. I guess the closest sport I could get, you know, as far as comparing with what we do is golf, because there’s a lot of golf simulators out there, right? That’s kind of a fun thing, right? So, but even so,
John Kozicki (24:12.19)
Right. Yeah.
John Kozicki (24:28.855)
yeah, good point.
Mandy York (24:35.296)
Like, I don’t think anyone’s gonna say, you know, practicing your swing at the golf simulator can really replace, you know, working with an instructor, right? Yeah, that’s, we’re not doing that to our kids. We know that they need to be, you know, on the team with the people. They’re gonna learn best from a coach that’s in person with them. So.
John Kozicki (24:47.147)
Sure. Yeah.
John Kozicki (25:01.665)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (25:04.459)
I think that, like you said, it could be easy to pick that less expensive AI online instructor. really, where else is that, would a parent be satisfied with an online instructor, or an AI, I’m sorry, not online, but AI instructor, right?
John Kozicki (25:29.161)
Sure. Well, and we did talk about this on that AI episode. We talked about how it will, it will change things. You know, yes, there, may provide access to people who don’t have access to an in-person instructor. It may provide access for people who maybe can’t afford the private in-person experience or
these other group type experiences. So yes, there is a potential benefit there for people who don’t have access. But I guess my big point is like.
this will change what we do. And I’ve noticed that…
Oftentimes.
music instructors, music lesson providers are a little bit slow to make changes, right? And as technology changes, if we aren’t willing to change how we operate, well then we might just kind of be edged out, right? I mean, I know that there are still…
Mandy York (26:30.614)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (26:50.816)
I know that there are still music studios and lesson providers using pen and paper to track attendance and, and, know, track, track payments and things like that, you know, more power to them. But I would, I would venture a guess that most people who
Mandy York (27:01.985)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (27:19.865)
are looking for music lessons might not want to be bothered by how slow that is, you know? forewarned, right? The change is here and I think we’ve got to keep up. So I tried to simplify all of this and in my notes I asked, well, what is the value that you can provide?
Mandy York (27:31.137)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (27:47.318)
that just can’t be found or purchased online, right? Because again, knowledge is, it’s readily available online in many forms, whether it’s websites or videos, or, you know, we’re talking a lot about AI, that’s definitely coming. So bullet points, socialization, sense of community, shared experiences, working and playing together.
Those are the things that I think we should be talking about more. I think we should be talking less about like, here’s what you’ll learn. Unless it’s framed in here’s what you’ll learn. You’re gonna learn how to socialize. You’re gonna learn how to be part of a community. You’re gonna learn how to work together. Not you are going to learn this many songs and this many scales and how to read music because that can be found anywhere.
Mandy York (28:25.709)
Yeah.
Mandy York (28:38.529)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (28:43.436)
Yeah, if you do that, your list of goals can look exactly the same as the list of goals and AI would provide. Yeah. Yeah. We don’t like change, but we need we need to stay relevant. We need to stay relevant. And this is kind of interesting because I think in order to stay relevant, we just need to go back to.
John Kozicki (28:58.485)
You
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (29:12.065)
back to our roots and what we take for granted really. This isn’t new. This isn’t new. This is what we know, but it’s what the world is forgetting.
John Kozicki (29:16.211)
Yeah. No, it’s not.
Right.
John Kozicki (29:24.669)
Yes, I love that. Well, and if, if technological changes.
Mandy York (29:26.978)
Right?
John Kozicki (29:35.413)
This is a tough one, right? Because by technology standards, music kind of shouldn’t exist anymore. Right? If we look at technology, like music has been handed down for hundreds, thousands of years by people sharing it.
Mandy York (29:43.339)
Hehehehe
John Kozicki (29:53.998)
And it’s not the knowledge, right? It’s the experience, I think. And there’s something inherently human about music. And if I’m having a hard time articulating it, I think it’s because it’s hard to articulate, right? It’s a feeling, it’s an emotion.
to not be all doom and gloom and hopefully like kind of make this end on like a more uplifting note. We, you and I have talked about how music is magic, right? There’s something magic about that shared experience. The story I like to tell and I think I’ve told it before is I took my daughter to her first concert a few years back and
Mandy York (30:32.511)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. yeah.
John Kozicki (30:51.786)
in the middle of the concert, she’s like, you know, she’s screaming and, and singing along at the top of her lungs. And she looks over to me and I’m sitting down next to her and she’s like, what are you sitting down for? Why are you just sitting there? And you know, later I had to explain to her, like my relationship with music is different because I’ve been doing it for so long and understand how it works. So when I go to a concert, I’m a little bit more focused on like
what are they playing and like, what, like, how is it mixed and all that like really nerdy, like technical stuff that the general public doesn’t care, nor maybe doesn’t have a knowledge about, right? And I so needed to see her interact with music that way. Because when I looked around, I realized like, I am the only one sitting down, everyone else.
everyone else in the entire arena is is on their feet screaming and singing along with the band and what’s funny is like I have it this renewed appreciation for live music and now I feel like if I am sitting down at a concert well then I’m missing it I’m missing something
it can’t be replicated, you know? And that’s for the listener and the performer and everyone.
Mandy York (32:19.731)
No. Yeah.
Mandy York (32:24.307)
Mm-hmm. And I think what you’re talking about too, like it’s, you were missing out on like participating, right? That kind of a concert is very active, like people are participating, right? The energy is there throughout the space. And I think that’s where the real magic is, when everyone is coming together like that, right?
John Kozicki (32:32.447)
Yeah!
John Kozicki (32:38.069)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (32:49.461)
Yeah, 100%.
Mandy York (32:50.732)
I’ve seen it in small spaces, in large spaces, that act of coming together and making music, just sharing the space, the sound, the energy. Yeah. There’s, like you said, it’s hard to explain.
John Kozicki (33:04.577)
Right? You’re 100 % right. I was missing out because I was trying to learn, right? I was trying to like, what instruments are they playing? What gear, what amps are they using, right? How do they have the lights and the sound synced up? I was trying to learn on those things that no one else cares about. And I missed the big picture, which is why everyone else.
Mandy York (33:12.055)
Mm-hmm
John Kozicki (33:31.798)
while 12,000 other people were there. And my viewpoint on it was wrong. So yeah, we’ve got to figure out how to describe those magic aspects in a way that’s going to resonate with students, parents, potential students, potential clients, because when we can express how magic music is like that.
Mandy York (33:35.149)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (33:59.958)
And we don’t have to be touchy feely. I think we can be touchy feely, but when we can do that, then there’s no way that you can replicate that with a YouTube instructional video. No way.
Mandy York (34:14.381)
Mm-mm. No. And don’t assume everyone knows this. We know it. We’ve known it a long time, maybe all of our lives. When you’re trying to reach new people or you’ve got family’s clients coming to visit, don’t assume they know these kind of benefits. I think that’s a mistake I make sometimes. Let them know. Like, share an experience of…
John Kozicki (34:25.526)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (34:43.296)
something that’s happened in class, something that’s happened in a concert or rock rehearsal. Like let them know about the community, the friendships, the touchy feely if you want to, things that are gonna happen while learning music.
John Kozicki (34:58.114)
Sure. Sure.
Is there anything else that you wanted to add that you didn’t get to say? Because I think this is it. This is how you future-proof your music lesson business. Like, yeah, obviously you’ve got to provide those things that are transfer of knowledge, but that’s not what you talk about. Because that’s assumed. Everyone gets that. Music lessons, lessons on music. That’s assumed. You talk about…
Mandy York (35:23.713)
rate.
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (35:31.354)
everything else.
Mandy York (35:32.917)
Yes. Yep, no, I’m right with you on that, for sure.
John Kozicki (35:36.149)
Okay. Well, we’ll wrap it up then. Thank you for entertaining my like weird philosophical rant, Mandy. All right. Well, we’ll see you next time.
Mandy York (35:45.085)
It was fun, John. All right, take care.
