In this insightful episode of the Rock School Proprietor Podcast, John Kozicki (Michigan Rock School and RockSchoolProprietor.com) and Mandy York (Music Time of Milford) tackle a common challenge faced by studios offering rock band programs: managing young rock band programs effectively. Responding to a listener’s question about improving results from groups and instructors, John and Mandy share practical strategies to ensure a successful band program, particularly for younger students aged 9 to 12.
In this episode:
- the importance of structured rehearsal routines
- effective communication among instructors
- setting clear expectations for both instructors and students
- the significance of documenting processes
- providing supportive training for band coaches to maintain consistency and quality across studio programs
Tune in to discover actionable insights that can help studio owners empower their instructors and create an engaging, productive environment for young musicians.
Also check out: Episode 28: Mastering Behavior Management in Group Music Classes
Join our private Facebook group, “Performance-Based Music Programs and Rock Schools,” a community for like-minded professionals to connect and share insights.
Episode Transcript:
John Kozicki (00:02.958)
On this episode of Rock School Proprietor Podcast, Mandy and I answer another listener question centered around how to get better results from your groups and your instructors when your studio has a rock band program. Stay tuned.
you
John Kozicki (00:30.05)
Welcome to Rock School Proprietor podcast. I’m John Kozicki. And I. We got another listener question, Mandy.
I’m Mandy York.
Mandy York (00:38.614)
Yeah, another Q &A episode. This is awesome.
Yeah, and I suspect this was this was maybe inspired by our behavior management in group classes Episode which I believe episode 28 We got a message from Steve do you wanna yeah read what we got from Steve?
Yeah, sure. Steve reached out. he says, well, he asks, have you ever had a band where you felt like if the teacher couldn’t pull it together, that it would be in danger of turning into a train wreck. This particular teacher, Steve, or I’m sorry, Steve’s teacher does well with good student bands that are mature and responsible and learn all the music and practice hard. He’s a great private lesson teacher. He is super fun, but struggles with structure and keeping things from devolving.
pardon me, chaos when everyone starts goofing off playing riffs that they aren’t working on, cetera. He’s struggling currently with one of his bands. These are nine to 12 year olds who aren’t mature. Steve sat in and helped last week and it wasn’t good. He’s worried and he really doesn’t want to have to have to take over and teach the group himself.
Yes. That sounds like, well, one, think this is, this is maybe more directed toward me with the, the kind of the rock school angle. yeah. and I can help, I think, but it does sound really typical of some of the issues that I’ve seen in my school with that age range of kids.
Mandy York (01:56.12)
Yeah.
Mandy York (02:20.256)
Nine to 12. yeah. I would say this is something that many studio owners see. So we, we talked with Steve and found out, some more details about what’s going on here. He currently has three band instructors, including himself at his studio. he has rehearsal rules posted, be respectful, be prepared. Don’t play when you aren’t supposed to, Steve plans to lead the rehearsal next week so that the teacher can observe.
And he has given the instructor some notes and points to focus on to hopefully help improve rehearsals.
Yes, I’ve got thoughts. Yeah. What were your thoughts upon reading this? Because I know I’m going to like kind of get long winded here.
Yeah, sure. So, you know, reading this, did think like, yeah, sure. This is typical, not something I exactly the kind of situation I see in my studio, but I think we all, you know, we it’s, it’s good. We got to keep an eye on our teachers and, if they’re not teaching it at a standard that we hold them to, then the, worry is that students aren’t going to reenroll. Right.
There’s that, yeah, that fear that maybe parents will kind of start saying, what’s going on in there? yeah.
Mandy York (03:41.046)
Yeah. Yeah. I would say like in my studio, there’s some comparison going on, right? If you’re in, you know, Susie, miss Susie’s class versus Mrs. Sally’s class, know, you want the experience to be, kind of equal across different teachers. Yeah. Right. Not, not students on Mondays are getting a better experience than students on Tuesdays.
That’s consistency in the service that you provide, right? Quality control, yeah, the standards that you uphold and expect throughout your studio and people come to know so that there isn’t this weird imbalance of like, mm, yeah, this instructor’s great, but you don’t want that instructor.
Yeah. Yeah. You don’t want that at your studio. Right. And so reading this, I’m kind of thinking, if it were me, I need to, I need to be training this teacher more. I need to work more on training them in, well, in this case, classroom management, right.
Yes, I agree. I definitely see two things going on here. One is the obvious. It’s the behavior management in the groups. And we did that entire episode. So I don’t know if we should necessarily rehash the whole behavior management, but that definitely has to happen like right away to kind of reel everyone back in and
get them productive again. So it’s not quite as chaotic. And to Steve’s credit, mean, there, there’s some things in here that, that I do at Michigan rock school also, let’s see rehearsal rules posted in the rehearsal room. We have that right. And they’re very much the same worded a little bit differently, but it’s essentially the same thing. Show up prepared.
John Kozicki (05:40.62)
You don’t play when the band coach is talking. You don’t just like randomly play whenever. I’ve done something similar where if, if we have a newer band instructor or there’s a band instructor that’s maybe struggling with something, I’ll jump in and observe. I’ll, jump in and maybe lead briefly. so all these things, I think that he’s already doing are positives.
so that they can address that behavior issue. But I agree with you, Mandy, that the training, training and yeah, there’s a, think there’s a lot that to unpackage there and that’s what I want to get into. so what I also learned from Steve is, I mean, he mentioned he’s got three band coaches, right? He’s doing
He’s coaching himself. He’s the owner of the studio. He’s coaching most of these bands himself. He’s got these two other instructors. I think he mentioned one of them, not the one that’s having the issue. One of them’s just started. Just started with one band. So I remember when I was at that stage where I was coaching all the bands.
And I definitely had my way of doing things and over time figured out like what works and what doesn’t work. But then I also wanted to be able to expand and allow my other instructors to be able to coach bands and not have to coach all the bands myself, you know, and.
And I think that’s valuable too, because other instructors are going to do things their own way and in certain respects better than I could do. Case in point, just last week had a new band instructor that I’ve been sitting in with and the group was a little crazy and I kind of lost it for a second. And I was like, you guys got to stop, you stop playing. And then I was like, all right, I gotta leave the room for a second.
John Kozicki (07:58.592)
I left the room, new band instructor did great. I didn’t have to go back in there. He reeled him back in and like, they are responding to his style now. They didn’t respond well to my style. So case in point, I think it’s good to have these other instructors and these other band coaches. Now, all that said,
John Kozicki (08:24.628)
in that situation when when I was where Steve was, I thought the first thing I thought was like, okay, I’m just going to literally write down everything that I do in these in these band rehearsals. Like, to the T details, here’s what I do. I start with this and then I do this and this is I mix and then this I do this. It was a really, really long document.
I think looking at it now, there’s no way anyone would be able to follow that to a T. So let me ask you this, Mandy, because you’ve had training with music together. You’ve put your own instructors through training with music together.
Obviously you’ve got your own style of doing things in your studio, but how much of that training that they get from music together and you got from music together contributes to like an overall smooth experience. And then you’re kind of putting the icing on the cake or modifying for your specific studio. Is that the case?
Yeah, I would say so. That’s, that’s how it kind of works in my world here. the music together training is really thorough. lots of information about philosophy, why we do what we do, how we do it. and I think like Steve has pointed out, in his action items here with his instructor, observation is important. Observation is a component of the music together training.
So teachers will, new teachers in training will observe classes. And then they come to me and they start observing and co-teaching. I think that’s a really important part of the training experience. And they need to be in my studio with my families and seeing my style of how we do things before they go out on their own. Your long document, everything you’re doing, you know, A to Z and everything in between.
Mandy York (10:35.776)
I really like, I observe my teachers and it’s great when you can give them real life examples, you know, take notes while you’re observing and then in your meeting afterwards where you’re not giving them every single point, but you’re saying, I noticed this happened, right? Do you remember when this happened during class? This is how I would have handled it, right? Or, you know, if you had done this maybe before that song, you may have avoided, you may have avoided that.
Right. Right. those kind of things almost in real time. You’re giving them this feedback right after the class is over. So observing and feedback I think are really great, but maybe in a different way than what you kind of had initially.
Well, yeah, and I’m going to get into what like, because I don’t advocate for that. Right. I’ve got a different strategy. But to kind of piggyback on what you were just saying, I do something similar. Like when I’m observing a band coach, I’ll take notes right on my phone so that I can share it later. I look for I look for the positives. that was great.
Yeah.
when you did this, you got this response from the group, do more of that. So that way they’re getting the feedback about what they’re doing that is positive. And then also suggestions for like, maybe try this if you see they’re struggling.
Mandy York (12:05.772)
Like you said, I learn a lot from my teachers too. You know, it’s great and it’s really valuable to point those things out to them.
Okay, now on training processes, whatever you want to call it, I’ve got one more question for you in your situation. And then then I’ve got kind of some suggestions for Steve. When you do the training with music together, is it outlines? Is it documents? Is it videos? Just curious.
Yeah, well, everything has moved online. Once upon a time, it was an in-person training. Everything’s online, live, like Zoom calls. There are handbooks, right? Because you’re learning about early childhood development research. So there’s that component of it. And then you’re learning what
lesson plan structures are like, all of those things. And then there’s like an asynchronous piece to the training where you’re watching videos of classic.
Yeah, it’s, like the word handbook. And in fact, that’s what I call my document now in my, my studio is the band coach handbook. So, I definitely would suggest for Steve again, because he also said he doesn’t want to do it himself. He’s in a situation where he’s, he’s coaching bands, he’s teaching private lessons, he’s running the business, empowering his instructors to be able to do these things also is.
Mandy York (13:27.448)
for sure.
John Kozicki (13:47.768)
just going to make it better for everyone. But they do need, they do need like some, guidelines to work within so that they have an understanding of what is expected, what their goals might be, what they’re supposed to be executing. So then they do have the freedom to kind of put their own spin on it and, have fun because again, in Steve’s message, he said this, this instructor,
is what he said, he said super fun, right? So he’s a great private lesson instructor. He’s super fun, probably just gets in there and kind of having a hard time keeping things structured. and I don’t know if you know this, Mandy, I’m sure you do at this point from hanging out here at the rock school with me, rock musicians like to improvise in all aspects of life.
Okay. Yeah, they necessarily like to plan. They don’t necessarily like to, you know, write out a lesson plan. They just like to get in there and wing it, which can be good. But when you’re dealing with, think, this age group, nine to 12 year olds, if you let if you’re winging it,
they’re gonna walk all
They think they’re okay to wing it too. Yeah. Yeah. And when everyone’s just winging it, that’s, think that’s probably what’s going on here. okay. So now my notes about what maybe Steve can do to set up some sort of handbook and then the handbook can be again, those, guides and the expectations. He can use that to adapt any sort of training or, or figure out like,
John Kozicki (15:42.69)
Do they need to observe first or do they need to look through the handbook first? and I’ve found even with some of my instructors, you know, like if they’re not seeing some aspects of our program, they have no idea it exists. Right? So oftentimes I need to have, need to reference back to the handbook. yeah, just check out this part. It’s in, it’s in the handbook. And so that’s where the answer is. So, number one,
I think maybe Steve should put expectations for each group and the number of songs that they are trying to perform, right? So however long that session is or semester or whatever they’re calling it, if it’s four months, how many songs are the band supposed to be preparing for their performance in those four months?
might even vary based on age and skill level, right? Those nine year olds is even at our on our best days when we’re able to rally them and get them focused might not be able to still play eight songs in a performance, you know, maybe set the expectation more like three or four, you know, it really depends. That’s another thing the rough timeline to follow.
from the first rehearsal to the concert. Now again, you’ve got this planned out. Now you don’t have a concert, right? But you’ve got a timeline for your studio, right?
Yep. We have a certain number of weeks, a certain number of songs in our curriculum. yeah, I make sure I cover them a certain number of times.
John Kozicki (17:34.348)
Right, and it doesn’t necessarily have to be super structured. But if you know we are starting rehearsals on this date and we are having the concert on this date, well then you have a number of weeks. So it becomes kind of a math problem, right? You say, how many rehearsals? Divide that by the number of songs.
And then that gives you an idea of how long you should be spending for each one of those songs. Right? Not hard. Right? You have four months, you own for four songs, roughly one song per month. Yes. Simple. Now, this is the next one I’ve got on my list is communication. This is a hard one because generally speaking in these situations,
And I can speak for my studio at least. What we’re doing is in these band rehearsals, we’re not necessarily teaching the kids the songs. mean, sometimes we have to teach some aspects of it. Sometimes we have to teach parts. But the expectation is the band rehearsals are for working on the songs, rehearsing the songs. They should be learning the songs in their private lessons and at home. So if a band coach is observing
how the group is working in rehearsals.
How does that band coach then communicate to all the private lesson instructors what the progress is? What, if you’ve got five kids in the group, six kids in the group, what is each one of those kids supposed to be working on from week to week to make sure that they are prepared for the next week? If there are problems coming up,
John Kozicki (19:27.51)
with a specific band member, how do you communicate that issue to the private instructor so that they can focus on that in the private lessons? Right? Yeah.
Another thing that you can do is when things do kind of run south and get a little crazy, we’ve done this where the band instructor, the band coach will reach out to the private instructors and we call it giving them the talk. Yeah. So that then the private instructors, you know, in, the private lessons. So it’s not, it’s a different dynamic. Yes. Right. So
hate.
John Kozicki (20:14.082)
the private instructor can sit there with the single students say, hey, heard things are getting a little crazy in band rehearsal. What’s going on there? You know, and generally speaking, I think these students kind of look up to the private instructors. So if the private instructor is giving them the talk, you know, Hey, you can have fun in band rehearsal, but you also got to make sure that you guys are getting stuff done because you don’t want to go.
into that performance and just be completely unprepared.
I think that’s really smart. mean, in my experience, students have a positive relationship with their private teachers. And to have that conversation one on one and, like you said, different dynamic, different setting, that’s very smart.
But yeah, there has to be a system in place or at least a procedure in place for that regular communication because you don’t want to wait until it’s bad. You want to get into that groove where the private instructors know, okay, this is what they’re working on in band. And if there is an issue, there’s like,
And it could go the other way too. The private instructor could need clarification on what’s happening in band rehearsal. Okay, I know they’re working on this song, who’s playing the solo, who’s playing this part, are there any harmonies, you know, all that stuff. So communication amongst the instructors becomes really important. Could maybe consider…
John Kozicki (21:59.522)
Guidelines for what songs would be best for a particular skill level? That might be some information you want to put in a handbook. Yeah so that
Band instructors don’t get in a situation where maybe their group is at one skill level, but they chose a song that’s like a couple levels up.
Right, right, yeah. Yeah, I hadn’t thought about that. And maybe even, I don’t know what you do, but if this is a new coach, having them submit the song to you ahead of time, right?
Yeah, yeah. Another possible thing to consider in that situation, maybe you’ve got a band coach who is a drummer and knows a little bit about the other instruments, but drums are his primary instrument. Is he going to be able to assess a song from a guitar player’s perspective as doable for the level of the…
the kids in the group, right, or vice versa. So, you know, having some sort of guidelines and understanding there or suggestions. Now, I kind of alluded to this or mentioned this at the beginning, but what are the expectations of the band instructors regarding prep?
John Kozicki (23:29.528)
Right? Again, as I said, these rock guys just kind of like to wing it. And that’s if you’ve got a kind of a goal oriented program where you’ve got to get results, there might be some requirements for prep, know, whatever that is. Do they need to provide charts? Do they need to provide lyrics? But I think that should be clearly documented.
and clearly explained so that the band coaches know like, I’ve got to do this for every rehearsal.
Yeah, yep, smart.
strat tech provide tactics and strategies for running an effective rehearsal. Now this is, this goes back to a little bit about behavior management, but we did talk about with, with that behavior management and the episode we did on that, having a routine in, in band rehearsals so that everyone knows what to expect. What are the goals for each rehearsal?
And in these band situations, it also could include like how do you how should you mix the group so everyone can hear properly? What are the volume levels that you know, you want to maintain so that it’s not too out of control? You know watch out for volume wars where one kid Turns up their amp and then the next kid turns up their amp and then all of a sudden you’re like what? What’s going on? Cuz they’re
John Kozicki (25:05.794)
They can be quick. And it’s, I mean, it’s kind of funny, but like when you think about, when you think about a band rehearsal from a kid’s perspective, when they’re home practicing or when they’re in a private lesson, even practicing, they hear their instrument more than anything else. So when they go into a band rehearsal, it’s going to sound different to them.
And so their natural instinct is going to be like, I can’t hear myself. I need to be louder, but that’s not the right mix for the entire group. Right? Everyone needs to hear everything. Well, so, you know, maybe provide some, some info in the handbook about mix and volume. And I’m big on with, with my groups, making sure they know how to set up, making sure they know how to clean up, so that they’re
taking care of the room and we’re ready for the next group. Let’s see, what else do I got here? Now, when the behavior issues happen, or if they happen, what procedures or protocols do you have in place so that these band coaches know what they can do, what they shouldn’t do, so they don’t feel lost? Because again,
maybe Steve’s band coach is just like, yeah, they’re out of control. I don’t know what to do here. So strategies that the band instructors can employ. Again, we talked about some of those on our behavior management and groups episode. How to get support if he needs it, if he’s in the middle of a band rehearsal and you know, a kid’s especially wild and
you know, or something maybe like an amp breaks or something like what do do? But also, what’s that procedure for contacting parents? Or again, contacting the other instructors to get involved? Who’s responsible for contacting the parents if they have to do that? Is it an email? Is it a phone call? Like, what is, you know, what’s the rough plan there? Because I think that can vary depending on how you have your
John Kozicki (27:34.424)
your studio set.
Yeah, and who makes the communication with the parents.
Exactly. You know, and does Steve in this situation feel comfortable with his band coaches reaching out directly to the parents about this? Maybe so. But he’s also gonna want to make sure if he does that they’re saying the right thing. Yes. Not like, yeah, your kid was really bad in rehearsal.
Can you tell him not to be bad? Yes. And then the parent’s like, what? So, you know, that like, think about who’s responsible for contacting the parent and like how to be tactful.
That goes back to consistency and how you’re being represented.
John Kozicki (28:21.662)
Exactly, exactly. And then once this this whole handbook is is sort of established, what kind of training does Steve want to make sure that his band instructors have so that he feels good about them running the band rehearsals, but also they feel prepared and they feel like they do have a plan and they’re not just winging it. Yeah.
So that’s my really long-winded suggestion for Steve.
It’s a big job. It’s a big job preparing these teachers. Yeah. You know, but it does come down to us as studio owners to make sure they are prepared.
Well, yeah, and this stuff doesn’t happen overnight. I mean, I just have the benefit of having like over 10 years of kind of experiencing all this stuff and saying like, yeah, this should go in the handbook. yeah, we should do like, we used to do this, but we’ve got to do this now. yeah, that’s.
That’s good to note too, it’s a living document. You keep adding things to it.
John Kozicki (29:32.128)
Yes. And again, I’m going to mention this because one of Steve’s goals is to not have to jump in and take over. currently everything’s in his head. He goes in there and runs a band rehearsal. And I don’t know how much experience he has, but he’s got it down. You know, he’s done this before. He knows how to interact with the kids to get what he wants out of them.
He’s he doesn’t necessarily have to think about it. It’s almost second nature, right? And these band instructors will get there, but he just needs to figure out how can I get some of this stuff out of my head? And because he probably did the same thing that they’re doing. He probably did the same thing that I did, which is trial and error. You you figured out as you go along. So I think by documenting all these things and setting up a process, he’ll be able to help his his current band instructors.
in dealing with all this stuff, but also then he’s got a plan for any other band instructors. So like, you know, maybe a year from now, this, this current band instructors, you know, maybe he’s doing great and he’s got five bands he’s working with and he can’t take on anymore. What’s, what’s Steve to do then? Right? So he’s success means, okay, now I gotta have
more people to do this. So better to do it now.
Yeah. And you don’t have to recreate the wheel later on when you’re hiring more. Yep. Yeah. I mean, that is what it comes down to. We’re trying to hire, you know, competent, exciting, passionate teachers that we can rely on so that we don’t have to step in.
John Kozicki (31:21.634)
Yeah. So those, those are two big things. Definitely got to deal with the behavior first, but, also to support his team, like set up some expectations and yeah. And you know what he wants to see as the end result so that these instructors understand like, okay, these are my guidelines. Now I’m going to work within them.
Yep, I like it.
All right, well, so with that, Steve, good luck. You can do it.
Yeah. And I, you know, again, go back to episode 28, the classroom management. think it goes along with this conversation really well.
Yeah. All right. Well, thank you, We’ll you next time.
Mandy York (32:03.916)
Great, thanks John.
John Kozicki (32:27.838)
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