On this episode of Rock School Proprietor Podcast, John Kozicki (Michigan Rock School and RockSchoolProprietor.com) and Mandy York (Music Time of Milford) delve into the complexities of managing behavior in group music classes. John and Mandy share their experiences and discuss effective strategies for different age groups, from preschool to high school.
Mandy talks about her experiences teaching mixed-age music classes and rhythm kids, highlighting the unique challenges and joys of working with various age groups. From setting expectations and establishing routines to employing different engagement techniques, they explore how to create an environment where children not only learn but also enjoy.
Also in this episode:
- Strategies for keeping kids engaged during group classes
- How a routine and repetition can help set expectations in groups
- Balancing goals set by instructors with a fun environment, and leveraging rewards to achieve goals.
- Ways to address negative behavior when it escalates.
- Strategies John and Mandy have found effective in maintaining a productive and enjoyable classroom environment.
John and Mandy share valuable tips on behavior management in music education so you can learn how to connect better with young musicians, and ensure your classes are both fun and fulfilling for everyone involved.
Join our private Facebook group, “Performance-Based Music Programs and Rock Schools,” a community for like-minded professionals to connect and share insights.
Episode Transcript:
John Kozicki (00:02.766)
How do you manage four, maybe six, or ten kids all with musical instruments in a group music class? That’s what we’re talking about today on Rock School Proprietor Podcast. Mandy and I talk about the different tips and tricks that have worked for us in group classes. We talk about how different age groups require different strategies and how we get results, all while creating an environment that the kids enjoy. Stay tuned.
John Kozicki (00:30.638)
Welcome to Rock School Proprietor podcast. I’m John Kozicki. Mandy, today we’re going to talk about behavior management in group classes, right? And this was something that you kind of brought up to me, not because of your music to the other classes, right?
And I’m Mandy York.
Mandy York (00:48.78)
not because of my young mixed-age classes.
Okay, because with those classes, they can pretty much.
Caregivers are in the space. Yeah. It’s different. Yeah.
What inspired you to want to talk about behavior management in groups then? Because now I want to know what kind of issues are you dealing with?
Well, I, you know, I, the majority of what I teach and for 10 years I’ve been teaching, mixed age babies through age five, music together classes, caregivers are in the space. I mean, there is, you have to manage the classroom, right? But you’re mostly managing grownups really. And it is easier most of the time to get grownups on board with what you’re doing. but, gosh, five, six.
Mandy York (01:42.094)
Five or six years ago, I started teaching rhythm kids classes, and I don’t teach very many of those.
What’s the age range for for your rhythm kids classes?
That is kindergarten to second grade.
Okay, so now you’re getting into like that sweet spot where kids are impulsive and like, they can kind of be destructive.
Yeah, and unlike my, you know, two and three year olds, they are talking a lot. They have a lot more to say. And there are no caregivers in the class when I’m working with just the kindergarten through second grade. So that’s the big difference too.
John Kozicki (02:24.55)
And how big, how many kids do you have in your Rhythm Kits class?
I teach those anywhere between five to 10 kids in a class.
All right. That’s a decent amount of kids to manage with drums. And then you had mentioned to me recently that you’re also, you’ve been teaching a kid’s choir. And is that, have you had issues there?
Yeah.
Mandy York (02:48.642)
Yeah.
That’s been a new experience too. I started working with a community choir. Yeah. Yes, and that’s kindergarten through fifth grade. I’ve had, oh, 13 to 18 in that group.
Okay, and how many kids?
John Kozicki (03:09.074)
of those different types of classes, which has been the most challenging for you to manage with the behavior stuff that we’re talking about.
Rhythm Kids group, kindergarten through second grade.
Okay, why do you think that is?
I think that the very good mix in the choir of kindergarten, first grade, as well as fourth and fifth grade. And I think that the older kids anchor the group a little bit. have a better understanding of what the expectations are.
Set the example. Exactly.
John Kozicki (03:48.902)
Okay, so for me in the rock school we we have groups categorized in well pretty much all age groups, but we tend to try and keep four to seven year olds together in our kids rock groups We do eight to eleven year olds in our beginner rock band. We’ve got rock band programs that are kind of more around 12 to 14 year olds and then
older kids that are about 14 to 18 year olds. So very much like with the kids rock being the exception, everything else is, is a lot like elementary school age kids, middle school age kids, high school age kids. I mean, we also have the adults, but generally don’t have behavior issues with the adults. so I’ve definitely seen and having had hands on experience teaching
coaching, instructing all of these different age groups at one point or another. You’ve got to handle each age group differently, I think. So I thought, well, I mean, my initial thought when you mentioned the behavior stuff, thought like, well, the behaviors demonstrate
Yes.
John Kozicki (05:10.368)
in different ways. The behaviors need resolution in different ways. The behaviors need management in different ways. It’s so with all these categories and age groups that I have, maybe like let’s talk a little bit about your rhythm kits first. So what is, what’s the biggest issue when you’re, when you’re dealing with what you would consider behavior issues or how does it present itself?
Okay.
Mandy York (05:40.672)
interruptions. when I, you know, I’m, I’m a pro at this mixed age, early age thing. I’ve got it. When I started teaching rhythm kids, I was like, well, it’s, this is going to be a blast. They’re just bigger kids. You can expect, you expect more from them in this class, you know, a little bit more. There’s no grownups here. It’s going to be our, our big kid music club. Same thing, just different kids.
Okay.
Mandy York (06:10.432)
And I mean, I immediately realized it is not the same. It’s not the same at all.
I would say in terms of age group and what you’re doing in those classes, that’s most similar to what we do with our four to seven year olds with our kids rock.
Yes. Yep, I would say so. OK. Yeah. So I got in the space, you know, and I’m sitting in front of these kids. And I was constantly interrupted. I mean, you start to explain something, and then it’s immediately like, what are we going to do next? Do you have a husband? You know, like, I have a wiggly tooth. does so overwhelming.
Yeah.
It’s so fun. you know, you, it’s easy for you as a teacher to get kind of caught up in it and like spend so much time learning about the wiggly teeth and what your favorite color is. Yes. I remember my feelings early on where I was getting stressed after my first, you know, several classes, like I’m not covering the material that I need to cover. This is bad. How do I gain control? You know, like I’m
Mandy York (07:23.938)
This is not going well. The kids were having a blast. Everyone was smiling. You know what I mean? But I had my stress level was up because I was feeling like I was not, I’m not cut out for this. I’m not giving the kids all the information and material that is in my plan. You go in there with this plan and quickly realize I didn’t get through half of it.
Yeah, that age group is challenging. I would say that of all the age groups that we serve at the Rock School, that’s the most challenging. And when I go to either hire instructors or I have instructors teach that age group four to seven year olds, I can’t just ask one of my like,
Like I’ve got almost a dozen instructors. I can’t just grab one of them and say like, Hey, I need you to teach this class today. There is a specific skill set and a specific mindset, I think, and not everyone can teach that age group. So there’s, there’s tricks to it. There’s nuance and most of it. Well, all no, all of it is because of like how you may have to manage those behaviors. Cause it has nothing to do with the
the musical content, like, anyone can grasp the musical content. But it’s how you keep those kids engaged enough so that, like you’re saying, so that you are getting through the material, and they’re not bouncing off the walls and asking you, are you married? What’s your favorite color? What did you have for dinner today? All that other stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So what, what strategies have you employed?
And now that you’ve done it for a while and you realized in the early days you’re not getting through the content and it’s not the way you want it to be.
Mandy York (09:25.226)
Yeah. Well, I think one thing that was important for me personally, I had to lighten up on myself a little bit. That’s why I mentioned that I was really hard on myself in the beginning and worried that like, I’m not doing a good job. I had to let go a little bit and know that like, I was putting a lot of pressure on myself.
to get through X amount.
was your thought process about getting through a certain amount of material? Was that like you wanted to get through that material or you wanted to make sure the kids learned that much?
Well, or both or both, right? Both. I felt this, I feel this, this is all, this is all me and inside my head is not everybody’s the same, but I was like, the parents are expecting this. need to do a good job for the kids and the parents. I learned to lighten up.
Which we’ve talked about, right? That’s self-imposed. Totally. Most of the time. Yeah.
Mandy York (10:33.198)
Yeah, so take it easy on yourself. You know, these classes were not by any means total disasters Zoom out take a look at what’s really going on. The kids were having fun. We were getting through material, but I had to learn to Adjust how I presented things Kind of knowing what comes next in giving instructions being very specific not saying like okay
We’re going to get our jembe’s because once you say that they jump up, right? Right. To go get their jembe, you have to say, okay, I’m going to tell you the three things we’re going to do.
Three things key. Yes. Yes. The three things that’s on my list.
Yes. Right. So to be very specific with them. Cause I know that, cause if you just say, this is what they’re doing, they’re going to jump up and do it. Say something like, these are the three things I want you to get your Gen Bay. I want you to slowly walk to this side of the room and then get in playing position. Yeah. Okay. Now go. That’s something that I’ve, I’ve learned, um, my trial and error, but just seeing that happen over and over. Um, and then.
I’ve realized like my energy level is higher with those kids than it is with the tinier ones. I think I get a lot of energy from the grownups in my classes, from the mixed age group, which is how it should be. Those caregivers are modeling for their young, young children in a K through second group. I’m the only adult, right? So my energy level is higher.
John Kozicki (12:15.794)
found when I’ve had to jump in and teach the four to seven year olds, I am exhausted after even just doing like one or two classes, right? So even because what I’ve found is my strategy to keep them engaged is to try and be more interesting than everyone else to keep them
Occupied right so then I’m kind of performing. I’m putting on a show but also to reduce or eliminate any Breaks any silence in that class because if there is a break and if there is a silence I know that those kids are gonna find something to do and then I’m gonna have to redirect. yeah for sure I feel like that when I have to do those classes or when I have had to do those classes
Yeah.
John Kozicki (13:11.838)
Absolutely exhausting. You mentioned a couple things that I wanted to highlight because they’re all in various ways on my list too. Number one is establishing a routine.
Yeah.
John Kozicki (13:30.794)
You have to establish the routine, number one, so you’re able to effectively teach the class so you know how to lead them through. But also as the kids get comfortable, as they come to a few classes, they start to expect what that routine is. If you’re like winging it every class, the kids don’t know what’s going on. They don’t know how they’re supposed to behave, right? So establishing that routine is so important.
They even have a
keep you honest too, right? If you’re if you would do do a good job of establishing the routine, they’ll call you out. They’re like, oh, we were supposed to do this next, right? Or shouldn’t we put these over here when we’re finished? Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, it’s, you mentioned the three things. I do this, and I suggest this with my band coaches, with all of my instructors, if you’re teaching group class, write down what you’re going to do in that class on the whiteboard, right? These are the three things we’re doing in rehearsal today. These are the three things we’re gonna do in class today. Refer back to it, you know, at the beginning of class, show them these are the three things.
then refer back to it every time you need to. Like, okay, we did number one, we’re in the middle of number two, we still haven’t finished number two. Having that visual schedule and that visual understanding of what you’re trying to accomplish in each class, again, helps the kids feel like they understand what’s expected of them and what is going to happen. And then the third thing I wanted to mention was it’s
John Kozicki (15:09.398)
like it’s like training puppies. It know, it takes constant repetition and patience. And most of the time, especially with the little kids, if if you say it once, you’re gonna have to say it a few more times, just like you would a puppy. Because their brains are all over the place, you know, like
Yeah.
John Kozicki (15:37.474)
You direct them to one thing and then they’re like, okay, and then they’re off to something else. You gotta bring that attention back to whatever it is you’re focusing on.
Yes. Yep. mean, the good news is they do like repetition and routine. They really do. They thrive on that. So I have to remind myself that from time to time, because it may feel too repetitive to you, right? Like, my gosh, I’m doing this again. Don’t get caught in that because they’re not feeling that same way. They do like the routine and repetition.
And I’ve found to piggyback on that, I’ve found that with a lot of my instructors and band coaches, they will get bored with the, whatever part they’re working on way before the, kids in the group will. Right. So, I, again, I’m always encouraging them like get reps in, you know, just if they’re, if it’s not like, if they’re not doing it like three times in a row.
like to a level that you feel they’ve got it, then start over and like just keep getting reps in.
Yeah. It is very satisfying to them. is. Yeah. Good to remind yourself. Another thing about the behavior, kind of what you had said, they’re all over the place. I suppose this is a why. In most cases, we’re getting them at the end of the day. In my case, you know, I’m getting them after school. These kids have been keeping it together all day long. Right. And this isn’t like school. This isn’t a rigid experience.
John Kozicki (16:49.303)
Right.
Mandy York (17:16.204)
I mentioned earlier, I call it our big kids music club. So they’re excited to be there. know, they, another good thing to remind yourself about, That balancing my teacher goals versus the experience of the kids, right? I can see my effectiveness in the
the rhythm patterns that they’re learning, you know, in the smiles on their faces and the way they’re moving their feet to a beat, right? Remind yourself of all those little things and balance those things. Your teacher goals versus the experience of the kids. Yeah, I don’t know. As I’m sitting here thinking about this, that’s what I keep coming back to because I just think I can get so hard on myself about trying to…
be too perfect in these situations.
When you think about behavior issues in these classes, everything you’ve described so far is really just about capturing attention. That’s kind what I’ve heard. Which I think most of the time, even with all the different age groups that we serve at the Rock School, that’s really what’s going on. Most of the time you just need to redirect or recapture their attention.
John Kozicki (18:46.338)
But has it escalated at all in your situation?
For sure. mean, sometimes you like you say you have to redirect or pivot like, okay, we’re finished with that. Everybody stand up. You know what I mean? Sometimes you just need to change the energy level. Like this small movement activity is not, they’re just not in it. And there’s too many things happening. So I just switch gears, I get everybody up. You know, I turn on my next, I always have a plan ready to go, but I’ll just switch to my next activity, a large movement, turn on the music and here we go.
changing gears to kind of refocus everybody. And I find, I find like going big helps. You know what I mean? Not, Hey, you guys, Hey, we’re not focusing. We need to be quiet. Like, Hey, we need, we need to be respectful. You need to quiet your voice. That’s not working. That’s not going to work. Right. Sometimes redirecting like
to a large movement or I’ll say like, okay, give me a forte drum roll. Let’s go forte, forte.
Yeah, like loud, loud. Yeah, yeah, we do.
Mandy York (20:00.332)
Yeah, using contrast in class? That’s a good one. That works often.
Okay. I want to get into it a little with like, kind of some nuts and bolts stuff that I’ve seen at the rock. Because I’ll be honest.
I’m curious. I’m really curious.
John Kozicki (20:22.092)
I think that everything you’ve encountered sounds a little benign.
Yeah, and I think about like, you know, we’re working through a book of rhythm patterns and we’re just playing music together. It is very just, you know, playing with music. Right. We it’s quite informal, really. You guys are preparing for a concert.
Yep, yeah, because we had it’s kind of goal-based. Yeah, what the four to seven year olds? It’s like we have to There’s a there’s a result that we’re trying to get and there’s a finish line for this and it involves a performance so the stakes are a little higher now I will say with the With the younger kids and same age group that you’re describing Most of it has been
kind of the same issues that you’ve experienced, right? But with, so with the four to seven year olds, the two big issues are, and this, okay, so this one across the board, the biggest issue is what we call noodling, right? And noodling is playing your instrument when you’re not supposed to, when the band coach or instructor’s talking, you shouldn’t be playing. And,
So with the four to seven year olds, we’ve done like sticks up picks up, right? And get their hands up so that way they’re not making any noise with their instruments or quiet coyote, right? Quiet coyote. But again, that’s like that training a puppy thing. If you’re consistent with that in the classes, when you bust that sticks up picks up out, then they know what to do.
John Kozicki (22:11.426)
And they’ll usually fall into line. The other one is talking. Again, across the board with all the age groups, it’s talking, it’s noodling, relatively benign stuff. It’s all about just, we have to refocus, we have to redirect their attention. Again, it’s about training the puppy. That’s why I think…
The visual schedule for each class and what the goals are for each class is really important because in the moment when you’ve got an agenda of three things that you want to get through and you’ve only gotten through one of them and you got maybe 10 minutes left, you redirect them to the whiteboard and say like, okay, here’s where we are. We’ve done the first thing. We’re still not through the second thing. We got to get through all these things.
before the end of class, usually that’s enough to kind of refocus on. You can use that as an incentive. Also, we’ve done that where like, okay, if we get through these three things, then by the end of the class, you guys can talk about what you’re doing this weekend or talk about whatever, know, sort of reward. We’ve even done like, you get skittles or something. So.
Yeah.
We play a musical game at the end of class. It’s always in the last spot. yeah, same thing. Like, we have, we gotta get through this so that we can play the game. Right. my gosh, they go crazy for that, right? Yep.
John Kozicki (23:50.7)
Yeah. So what happens when it escalates though? Now again, rarely have we had that issue with the four to seven year olds. This seems to surface, I would say more like, you know, nine, 10, 11 year old age range. What do you do when
continually ask them to stop playing their instrument. When you continually ask them to stop talking when the instructor or the band coach is trying to explain something. Have you had that issue?
I have once not done the game at the end of class. I felt so bad. One time we did not do the game. And like you said, coyote, quiet coyote, sticks up, picks up. do put your drums in sleeping position. We turn them upside down, the jembeys. Occasionally I’ll have one student. You need to put your drum in sleeping position right now.
Mandy York (25:12.022)
It’s tough doing that.
So you haven’t you haven’t had level two. Your issues. So yeah, level two behavior issues are those things where it’s like, okay, you’ve done all this stuff, you’ve turned the instruments down, you’ve like, used all these techniques tried to redirect, they’re still persisting on, you know, not doing what they’re supposed to do. Generally, what we’ll do and what I recommend for for my band coaches is
I have not had level 2.
John Kozicki (25:41.71)
If that’s the case, then you say, all right, well, why don’t you go out of the rehearsal room five minutes? take five minutes. You’re welcome to come back in as soon as you feel focused. know? When you, when you throw that, that out there though, you like I tell again, tell my band coaches, you have to follow through. You can’t just say that.
Hey, if you do this again, I’m gonna put you out for five minutes. Like if you say that, you have to commit to doing it or else they know you’re not serious.
Yeah.
Mandy York (26:24.33)
Yep. Absolutely.
So we’ve done that. No, it doesn’t happen a lot. But in extreme cases when things are chaotic, because it’s usually one kid that’s, you know, one kid that’s sort of the source of the chaos. And if you can remove that kid, then everything comes back into line. But that chaos makes it a bad situation, just a bad experience for everyone. Right?
Like not just him, not just like the other kids who are getting weird, but also the kids who are really want to focus. So that’s a good technique. At least it’s worked for us where you say, all right, five minutes. I rarely are they out there for five minutes, at least in my experience, usually it’s like they’re super embarrassed, right? That they actually have to leave the rehearsal room. God forbid their parents are in.
the waiting area when that happens, right? Because then they’d be mortified, the parents are mortified. So usually they’re out for a couple minutes, come back in, back to business. So that would be like level two behavior problem. And then you got level three behavior issues.
Have you had level three? Level three.
John Kozicki (27:48.408)
Three behavior issues is when it just gets so chaotic that we’re not making progress. We’re not on schedule with the, with learning and putting together the songs. Every band rehearsal is just kind of a wreck. so our strategy when that happens and that’s when, you know, even the, all right, five minutes out in the room.
doesn’t get things back together. Maybe like five minutes out of the rehearsal room and they’re back in and doing the same thing again. So what I found is the most important thing to do in those situations is to first get everyone on the same page. So the band coach has to be clear on how you’re gonna proceed. The…
Members of the group or the students have to understand what the expectations are and then also you let the parents of those kids know Like this is what’s going on So number one we send an email to all the parents in the group Things have been a little crazy in band rehearsal lately Here’s a reminder of what our expectations are in band rehearsal if
You know, we can’t keep things under control. These are the strategies that we employ. I, you know, lay out the strategies that I just mentioned to you. it would also be really helpful if you talk to your kid and let them know that, you know, we’ve got to make some progress and we can’t keep going this way. so that’s kind of like level three.
It’s happened and that’s always been enough to kind of get things back on track. I can’t imagine if it gets worse than that.
Mandy York (29:56.302)
Once you get the parents involved, I’m sure that takes care of it.
Yeah, and I think what I’ve seen with my band coaches is much like you internalized it when you said, I’m not getting through the content that I want to get through. They do the same thing. They say like. I’m not good at this, you know, these kids don’t listen to me. Like the parents are going to think I’m horrible, right?
And it’s that’s not really the case. What it is, is just kind of like that perfect storm of, like you said, into the school day, they’re able to cut loose. You know, we, I also generally think that we’re dealing with creative brains that are, you know, they’re pretty active and there’s a lot of energy going on in those brains and it just sort of flows out. So I don’t, I don’t think
it’s the band coach and the instructors fault, as long as they’re following kind of a plan, it just is what it is. And I don’t think they’re gonna be blamed by the parents.
Yeah. I think that was an important mindset change I needed to make and then implement all of these like setting expectations and all of the strategies that you said.
John Kozicki (31:21.27)
So do you think that thinking out everything under control now?
Well, mean, I have had a really good year, actually, with Rhythm Kids. It gets better. But I mean, each group, each semester change, you’re starting over, really. You’ve got some kids that know the expectations, but you’ve always got newcomers that don’t. Consistency is important. Like we said, ritual, repetition, consistency is helpful.
And you never know how those personalities are going to mix.
That’s so fascinating, right? Like you said, it’s kind of one of your examples. One kid can kind of stir the pot a little bit. like, yeah, you add one or two new kids to the mix. It’s really interesting how it changes the dynamic.
We had one group, this was years ago, this was a group of all middle school boys and one girl. And they were like off the walls, right? So hard to manage that group. Got through the session, made it through the performance. The girl wasn’t gonna do the next session, right? She was going off to do volleyball or something, right?
John Kozicki (32:42.038)
First rehearsal of the new session, all the same boys, fine.
yeah.
Absolutely fine. were all like, and I didn’t like we were banging our heads against the wall trying to figure out like, how do we get these kids to focus? We’ve tried all of our techniques, right? And we realized after the fact, it’s like, they’re all just kind of posturing for a 13 year old girl in the room. Yeah. Yeah. So in that situation, that’s
my god.
John Kozicki (33:14.21)
biological, you know, you can’t control that.
I love it. Yeah, it’s fascinating. I like your idea of writing your goals on the whiteboard. I think that’s something I’m going to try these next couple weeks.
And you can even check it off, right? Done. Done. Done. We did it. Yay. Have a little celebration.
I like that. And for listeners, I’ve spent time in other classrooms too. That’s always something you can do. I’ve been to the elementary school to watch kindergarten classes. Go watch another teacher’s class. Go get ideas from people. I’m always welcoming when people want to check out MySpace. It’s a great way to learn.
I agree. think it’s not as easy as just teaching private lessons, right? Where you are the focal point. Yeah, always, you know, so that’s super easy to manage. Totally a learnable skill too. I’ve done it. I’ve taught my instructors to manage these these groups like this and they’ve come in with like zero prior experience with groups.
John Kozicki (34:31.317)
Totally doable. It just takes practice. Yeah. Yeah All right. Well, we’ll wrap this one up This was a good one. Thanks, Mandy We’ll see you next time
Yeah, thanks, John.
Some of these group classes can be challenging and a few times in this episode Mandy and I mentioned the self-imposed pressure that we put on ourselves as instructors. If you want more on that topic, we go pretty deep into that on episode 10, Prioritize Playing Over Teaching in Private Lessons. I encourage you to go back and listen to that one. If you’ve got any questions about groups, be happy to help if we can. You can reach out to us at info at rockschoolproprietor.com. Show notes and transcripts for this and all
All episodes can be found at RockSchoolProprietor.com. I’m at Rock.School.Proprietor on Instagram. If you’d like to connect with me there, can also find me on LinkedIn as John Kozicki. As always, if you enjoyed this show and gained insight from our conversation, then we count that as a win. All we ask in return is that you pay it forward. Please share the show with someone you think needs to hear it.
