In this episode of the Rock School Proprietor Podcast, John Kozicki (Michigan Rock School and RockSchoolProprietor.com) and co-host Mandy York (Music Time of Milford) talk with Danny Thompson, a seasoned music lesson business owner from Music Factory in Orange County, California. This is part 2 of our conversation, in which Danny discusses the evolution of online music lessons from clunky Skype sessions to utilizing specialized platforms like Muzie.Live, designed specifically for music lessons.
In this episode:
Leveraging new technology for online music lessons
Adapting instructor strategies for online teaching
Choosing the right platform for online music lessons
Differentiating student expectations and experiences in the online model
The conversation explores the challenges of changing perceptions about online lessons, educating parents and students about their benefits, and the critical role of technology in overcoming traditional teaching limitations. Danny also provides valuable advice for instructors looking to improve their online teaching techniques and the importance of having a structured lesson plan.
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Episode Transcript:
Welcome to Rock School Proprietor Podcast. You’re about to hear part two of a conversation we had with Danny Thompson from the Music Factory Orange County and Music Lesson Business Academy.
If you haven’t listened to part one, it might be a good idea to go back and listen to that episode. It’s all about delivering a fantastic online music lesson.
Danny’s got tons of experience in the music lesson world, and he’s got valuable information to share. So please go back and listen to part one and enjoy part two of Rock School Proprietor Podcast with Danny Thompson.
John Kozicki: So the other thing that you mentioned, and this is what I really want to get into, which is the quality of your online lessons. So obviously, the whole world knows what Zoom is now, right? We all used it for our music lessons. And so many people, I think, are still using it for their music lessons.
Quick story: I sold my first music school in 2013 when I was living in North Carolina. I was running a music school down there, sold it, moved back to Michigan with my family, and I had a few students who were like, “Hey, could we still somehow maybe do lessons via…” at the time it was Skype. Sure.
And I was like, all right, well, I’m game to try this. And so I, you know, kind of put some work in and tried to come up with this. I remember I had like my laptop that had my main Skype account on it. And then I also created a second account so that I could set up an iPad that was sort of pointed at my guitar so that my students could see my fingers.
And, you know, obviously like the technology has improved since then with Zoom, but it felt clunky. And I still feel like even when I have students who have to jump online because, you know, like we’re going to miss our lesson today, we offer them the option to jump online and do the lesson so they don’t miss it.
It’s like, you know, the instructor turns on Zoom, the kid on the other side has their phone or something with a horrible internet connection. The audio is bad. It’s not much better now, 2024, than when I was trying to do it back in 2014.
But you’re not doing that, right? And that’s one thing I’ve always loved about you—you lean into technology and the things that you’re passionate about. Like you talked about it with your concerts—you go over the top trying to make it as best as possible. I’ve seen video of how you do your online lessons.
Danny Thompson: It’s great. Yeah.
John Kozicki: So what technology are you using right now?
Danny Thompson: Yeah. So, well, there’s a guy named Sam Reddy. He’s a guitar player and a guitar teacher, and he created Musi.Live, which is an online platform. You know, obviously it’s video conferencing, but it is designed for music lessons.
It just has all these tools. And he also addressed those issues of like, how do you get somebody online quickly? And just, you know, he’s made it very parent and student-friendly—where it’s like hit the big green button, boom, and your lesson starts—and things like that to just make it work really well.
Now, there’s always going to be some barriers in the technology that might impact that last little bit that’s different from being in person. And that’s just really like jamming along with somebody, but there are ways to go around that.
And personally, anytime I saw a teacher jamming a lot with a student, I always knew that was a sign they didn’t really have something to teach at that moment. So they were just jamming along together instead of really teaching. Ninety percent of the time, that’s what’s happening in a private lesson.
So we just invested in the technology to figure out how to make a great virtual or online lesson. It’s multiple HD webcams, good audio, and the teachers are all using broadcast-quality headset microphones. And so when you jump on, it’s really more like you’re watching a well-produced YouTube video or live stream.
The lighting, the backdrop, just everything—it looks good. I would say that in most cases, it looks better than where you’d go to take an in-person lesson. We’ve all seen the pictures of music schools. Very few of them are setting the world on fire with great environments. There are still people taking lessons in the back room of music stores.
We all know how crappy that is—bad lighting, and you’re lucky if there’s air conditioning. So I’d say there’s a good chance our online environment looks better. And in a lot of ways, it sounds better because the instructor is playing their guitar through a rig direct into the system.
So what the student hears could be a processed electric guitar or a nice acoustic sound. And again, you go take a lesson at a not-so-great music studio, and the instructor is using a little Squier 15 amp because that’s what the owner put in there. It’s not a great experience in most cases.
John Kozicki: But so many parents and students, they don’t know what to expect, right? So if they only ever saw that tiny room in the back of the music store that still has cigarette smoke stains on it from the 90s when the instructors would smoke in there, then they don’t know it can be better, right? I think that’s up to us to explain, like, here’s what it is that we do—is this what you’re looking for?
Danny Thompson: Well, I would say it’s almost even a notch harder than that in the challenge because I haven’t figured this all out. I have not figured out exactly how to find the right customer and the marketing—it is a work in progress for sure.
I am talking to customers, and basically, you know, I consider myself at this stage of the game to be an authority or expert on this subject matter. And people still think they know better than you.
No, I want an in-person lesson because this is going to be better. It’s like, okay. I mean, I’m the professional musician who makes records, you know, I gotta get on a flight tomorrow to Canada to play a show, and I’ve had a music school for 20 years—hundreds of teachers, you know, I’ve coached a hundred other music schools. I think when I say this is better, it’s like your doctor saying, you should do this and you going, nah, I’m gonna listen to a TikTok influencer. You know? But that’s the challenge you’re up against.
And you touched on it a little bit before—when everyone was forced to go online, nobody really knew what they were doing. So it sucked. And so the perception out there is that it sucks.
So then I’m kind of battling that, you know, and I’ve worked out all kinds of chops in my sales, everything, to combat that. And you know, it works with some people, and it doesn’t work with others. There are all these elements involved—like a student could be too young to want to do a virtual lesson, or their parents might say, I want them to have less screen time, as if learning music online is like being on social media. They look at it like it’s the same thing.
What I’m shocked by is I’ll talk to somebody younger than me—I’m 57—and they’ll go, I’m just not good with computers. I can’t do that, not like you young people. And I’m like, Dude, I’m almost 60 years old. You’re 40. Don’t give me that thing, you know?
There are a lot of adults that would be great for it, but they’re so scared of their computer.
John Kozicki: Yeah.
Danny Thompson: Now, someday in the not-so-distant future, that will be completely gone. Everyone will have grown up with these things. So what I feel like is I am currently selling a product that you don’t know you need. Right?
Which is tough, right? People call you thinking they know what they need, and I’m saying, Actually, having done this for 20 years, what I can tell you is that what you think you need kind of stinks in a lot of ways. Let me show you something better.
And that’s kind of, honestly, the sales approach I take with a lot of people. Here’s what’s wrong with most guitar lessons—let me just show you something better.
John Kozicki: Again, educating, educating, educating the parents, educating the customer. Mandy and I did an entire episode on that. And again, I have the same thing. Someone will say, Hey, before my kid starts in the band program, I really want them to feel more confident. So maybe they should start with private lessons first.
And my response is always, Well, the confidence is actually going to come from doing the activity, not from the private lesson where there’s no real pressure to improve, where you’re just practicing scales.
The confidence will come from getting in that room with other people and making mistakes. That’s how you’re going to improve. That’s how you’re going to feel good.
Exactly.
What I want to get into now, to kind of bring this home, is—since you have so much experience with delivering online lessons—two questions, and you can answer however you want.
First, what’s the one thing instructors shouldn’t do with their online lessons? If they’re doing them now or thinking about starting them?
And second, what are the best things they can do to level up and make their online lessons great?
Danny Thompson: Yeah. I mean, I think the thing that I see in some of the forums and stuff like that, and this is from teachers that are adopting or are trying to adopt an online environment, is I can tell kind of by the question they’re asking that they’re basically trying to teach the lesson exactly the same way that they did in person.
Right. And so that’s the very first thing that you, the mistake that you would make that you got to stop doing.
And I’d say also probably the number one thing that you would, would want to work on is in your normal lesson approach, what’s going to work in that environment and what isn’t going to work in that environment, you know, so…
You know, we don’t do a lot of voice lessons online, although I believe that voice lessons could very easily be done virtually well, but here’s a change you might need to make.
All those warmups you guys do, you know, right?
That piano stuff, just pre-record all that.
Those should all be little WAV files that the student has, so you are just listening to the student play that WAV file and do their vocal warm-ups, right.
So teachers are trying to teach the way they used to, which is two people singing over the top of each other maybe or even playing guitar over the top of each other. That’s where you get a little bit of audio compression and things like that. So the virtual teaching is a lot more of really focusing on, I am watching that student and listen, I’d say more so listening to that student, right?
As opposed to, here, play the chords the same way I’m playing it, right?
And we don’t do it so much that way. We might demonstrate it, and then it’s up to that student.
So guitar, for example, you know, using music, okay, John, you know, you’re working on your first scale.
You’re going to play along to this, you know, basic blues progression.
That blues guitar, the teacher just plays that blues guitar progression real quickly and records what’s called a clip. Boom.
Hits the button. Now the clip is on the student’s side. The student just plays the clip and plays along to it.
In the old days, the teacher would keep playing, right? So the student can do that scale.
Now you’re just watching the student do the scale along to the clip that you recorded. And this is all like this stuff happens just like that. Metronomes, things like that. The student plays a metronome on their side. If I’m— yeah, go ahead.
John Kozicki: If I could jump in on this, what, like, really what you’re talking about is, you’re talking about coaching. Like, look at any other activity, right? Look at any other sport. When you have private instruction— like, my nephew is a baseball player. When he has a private baseball lesson, his coach isn’t doing the same thing as him at the same time. He’s watching, “Do this,” providing feedback, “Try it again,” you know, providing feedback. So that’s what you’re saying.
Danny Thompson: It’s like, yeah, it’s a one-way rather than, like, you know, making music together.
I mean, obviously, the teacher is demonstrating things on guitar, and you can listen to it. It sounds amazing, and you can see everything.
Again, you know, the customer out there, and I would say probably a lot of people in the music lesson industry, they just kind of have, like, you know, these myths.
Oh, you can’t see my hand good enough. And it’s like, well, you know, we’re using multiple HD cameras plus visual aids on the screen, like a chord chart that you’re just pulling dots to.
You know, I’ve taken guitar lessons online. It’s easier for me to see where my fingers go on a chord, seeing it on that chart than it is trying to look at a person’s hand, even when the person’s right next to you.
It’s very hard sometimes, especially for a new guitar player.
Is that finger on this string or that string?
I mean, you know, those are things that people have always sort of struggled with.
Mandy York: So this is really interesting for me to hear this. I feel as a teacher, thinking of myself in a private lesson situation, I feel like I would hear more of my student.
Danny Thompson: Yeah, you’re going to get forced to listen more. When I was taking a guitar lesson from Brian, I had a realization because I’m not much of a guitar player. He said, “Hey, when you’re playing the D chord, you got to make sure you mute this string.” He wasn’t watching me do it; he heard me do it. I realized that many people wonder if you can see the student well enough to judge their hand technique. Honestly, as a professional drummer, I hardly need to see your hands to know if you’re doing it right. You can listen and say, “Yeah, you’re not fingering that chord properly.” Parents and non-guitar players don’t understand that, so I have to overcome those perceptions in the sales process.
Think about how you would teach a lesson; you can’t just go into it and do the lesson exactly the same way. You have to realize where the limitation is in a virtual lesson and change the way that you’re teaching it.
Another point brought up in our first episode of the Online Music Lesson Business Academy is to consider how students approach a blues progression. For example, if you’ve been playing guitar for six months in lessons, it’s important to have students create the blues progression first. They should record the chords and then play over it. This approach encourages students to engage more actively rather than passively receiving instruction, which is common in traditional lessons where teachers often play a lot themselves.
John Kozicki: I’ve definitely encountered that where being a music instructor is a weird job. There are performative elements in some lessons; take a traditional lead guitar player, for instance. They want to show off and solo, and they’ve got a captive audience in their students every 30 minutes.
Danny Thompson: Most guitar lessons you encounter often have teachers winging it. When I ask music school owners about their guitar lesson process, many have nothing to say. They claim to make it fun and tailor it to each student, but that suggests they don’t have a solid plan. Guitar teachers have been winging it for a long time, and some of those who have been doing this forever are world-class players. You can’t confuse being a great player with being a great teacher.
Some, like Brian, are amazing players and also excellent teachers, but that’s rare. I had a piano teacher in the early days who was an incredible jazz pianist and played at high-profile events. However, he was a terrible teacher because he didn’t have a plan or know how to structure what he knew.
In many ways, being forced to teach differently might help you to develop a structured approach instead of winging it.
John Kozicki: So you’re saying you’d probably, for those who are going into or trying to improve their online lessons, a platform specifically for that is going to be a better option than, say, Zoom?
Danny Thompson: Absolutely. There are so many tools in there like whiteboards. Think about if you wanted a drum lesson right now and I could pull up a whiteboard on the side of the screen and draw music notes, adding accents or whatever we’re doing. Yes, you can do those things in person, but this allows for recording it for the student to watch again later. I can pull up a piano roll at the bottom of the screen, and the student can see highlighted blue notes of when those keys are being pressed.
There are just so many tools that you can utilize with something like music. If you’re going to do it, you have to do it right from a technical standpoint. Don’t try to do a FaceTime lesson or something like that. Make the investment—HD cameras, good lighting, good audio—and you can create an amazing experience.
There are other benefits, especially in virtual guitar lessons. Here’s what I’ve thought about: You pack up your guitar from home, get in the car, and drive to the lesson, whether it’s a 10-minute drive or a 30-minute drive. You walk in, wait around for a few minutes, go into your lesson, unpack your guitar, probably tune it real quick, and then start your lesson. Before you know it, time’s up, and you have to pack up your guitar, hop back in the car, drive home, walk in the door, and put your guitar down.
In a virtual environment, when the teacher ends one lesson and clicks to go to the next student, that student is already there, ready to play. When the teacher wraps up and provides the lesson assignment for the week, the next student doesn’t have to stop; they can just keep practicing what they were doing in the lesson. In a lot of ways, the engagement level is higher in that environment than in the old way.
Now, there are people who prefer to get out of the house and meet someone. That’s okay; they’re not the customer. There are all kinds of reasons why that might not be for every student. But there’s a good student base that could really benefit from a good virtual lesson.
If you’re an adult wanting to learn guitar without trying to play in a band, just learning some songs for yourself, I can’t imagine doing it the old way. You’d have to pay me to go back to that. After having experienced guitar lessons in a virtual environment, there’s no way I’m getting in the car to drive for what’s probably not a great experience just to hang out.
John Kozicki: Well, totally fair. Sometimes that’s what people want. Everyone’s in it for a different reason, identifying and differentiating those lines more clearly. What is it that you want out of your music lessons? You can find it. There’s a lot of people offering a lot of different things for music lessons, but what is it exactly that you want?
With the online Music Lesson Business Academy podcast, is that still going to be a regularly occurring podcast?
Danny Thompson: Yeah, we’re trying to be as consistent as we possibly can with it. I don’t want to commit to every week right now just because it’s new, and we’re both actually touring quite a bit right now. It’s been a really busy year for us playing music, and Brian is leaving for about five weeks here real soon. But yeah, every week or two, there’ll certainly be an episode.
If anyone’s interested in general marketing stuff, there’s a small business real marketing podcast you can check out. That podcast is not exclusive for music schools; it’s really for any small business. The impetus for starting that was because when I go on to a podcast app looking for a small business podcast or a marketing podcast, all the guests and subject matter seem tailored for larger businesses with substantial revenues and multiple employees.
Our business can’t spend $2,000 on Google ads and pay a firm $2,500 a month to manage it. All the firms I talk to are talking about that.
John Kozicki: I’ll give you props. This would have been in 2017 or 2018 when you first launched the Music Lesson Business Academy. I was on board, and you forced me to think about things that were in the back of my head but maybe should have been forefront. I definitely suggest other music school owners reach out to you for marketing advice.
Danny Thompson: Awesome. Thanks. I think it was even farther back than that, like 2015 when I got started with that podcast. I started it, then I stopped it at one point thinking everything that could be said had been said.
John Kozicki: And here we are once again. Thank you, Danny, and Mandy, also thank you. As always, we’re going to wrap this episode of the Rock School Proprietor podcast. We’ll see you next time.
If you have topics, suggestions, or questions, please send us an email at info at rockschoolproprietor.com. We would love to hear from you and consider them for the show. Also, join our private Facebook group, Performance-Based Music Programs in Rock Schools. Lots of great folks and conversations there.
I’m on Instagram at rock.school.proprietor. I’d love to connect with you. You can also hit me up on LinkedIn as John Kozicki. If you enjoyed this show and gained insight from our conversations, we count that as a win. As always, all we ask in return is that you pay it forward and share the show with someone you think might benefit.
