John Kozicki (Michigan Rock School and RockSchoolProprietor.com) and Mandy York (Music Time of Milford) return with a follow-up to their three-part series, Play Beats Practice, after a clip from Part 2 sparked pushback from instructors online. In this episode, they unpack what that pushback actually revealed, and why the real conversation isn’t about minutes per day at all.
Included:
- Why the comments on “20 minutes a day is a cop-out answer” mostly fixated on technical progress as the goal, and why that’s not the point the series was making
- How to manage your own expectations as an instructor, including the “my student isn’t progressing” trap, long plateaus, and non-technical growth that doesn’t result in skill gains
- Why some students genuinely don’t care about technical progress, and why music instructors should be OK with that
- A story about a longtime student whose five years of lessons were never about learning to play better, but about connection, community, and what he came to call his “therapy”
- Why instructors and studio owners are already seen as leaders by their students and parents, whether they’ve claimed that role or not
- How John’s own mindset shift during COVID reframed what music lessons are actually for, and why there was no playbook to follow
- Why the manner in which you position practice in your studio reflects the culture you’re building, and why this conversation was never really about practice minutes
This episode is a postscript to the Play Beats Practice series, going one level deeper into what the pushback got right, what it missed, and why leadership and mindset matter more than any practice metric.
Rock School Proprietor is a podcast for independent music school owners and lesson studio operators looking to attract more students and create a sustainable business. New episodes drop Wednesdays at RockSchoolProprietor.com and on all podcast streaming platforms.
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Episode Transcript:
(Please note: This transcript was generated by robots. There may be errors. For the best experience, please listen to the podcast episode.)
John Kozicki (00:01.287)
Welcome to Rock School Proprietor Podcast. My name’s John Kazicki.
Mandy York (00:06.498)
and I’m Mandi York.
John Kozicki (00:09.58)
Mandy, we just wrapped up a three-part series on practice. Playbeats practice is kind of what we called it. And I don’t know if this is really this episode’s going to be like part four of three, or if it’s more like a a reflection or maybe a post script to that.
Mandy York (00:14.722)
We did?
John Kozicki (00:38.744)
I sent you a lot of notes this morning. And I sent them because we’ve been sharing reels from that series of episodes. And I’m getting a little bit of pushback on some of the things I said. and I’m like, I’m here for it, you know. I will, you know, I’ll I’ll argue the point, but
Mandy York (00:41.272)
Yes.
Mandy York (00:52.174)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (00:57.463)
Yes.
John Kozicki (01:09.858)
I guess to to fill in some holes, in particular, I shared a clip from episode 111, which is part two of that three-part series on practice. And the pushback I was getting stemmed from this particular reel. Well, there was actually there’s been more pushback on other reels since I wrote out all these notes, but the pushback was from one of the reels that we shared where I said.
When instructors are prescribing twenty minutes per day of practice, or when they’re faced with that question from parents, hey, how much should my students be practicing? And the reply is twenty minutes per day. I said that was a cop out answer.
And I get it. I get the pushback. so th but there’s like I can’t believe I have to say this again, but I’m not saying that practice isn’t important.
Mandy York (02:12.962)
rate.
John Kozicki (02:14.305)
But what I am saying is that practice is is nuanced and like it’s not a prescription. And
You know, one of the replies that I got from that reel is there were the replies b basically saying, like, well it it depends on the goals, right? And then a comment like, Well, if a student is serious, then two hours of practice per day is important. Maybe if they’re less serious, a half hour to an hour is important, right? Or comments like, it’s not just not just like the amount of time, but it’s like what you practice and it’s how you practice.
Ugh and
I’m treading lightly here because those are the answers I would kind of expect from most music instructors.
Mandy York (03:02.787)
you
Mandy York (03:11.49)
Yes.
John Kozicki (03:13.017)
And it’s not that those answers are necessarily wrong.
But I think that they’re shallow. And I think that there’s way more nuance involved in what we were saying with those episodes on practice. And there’s way more to it than just that 20 minutes per day and like how you practice and what you practice. I think all those things fixate on progress as being the ultimate goal in private music lessons.
Mandy York (03:49.355)
Yeah, I would say all those answers too.
John Kozicki (03:53.19)
What if that’s not the goal? You know, like what if that’s not important?
Mandy York (03:55.108)
See what I think. Sure. That’s valid point. Both sides. I’m absolutely I what I think about and take away from these conversations we’ve been having is that there’s just not a one size fits all. Right. That our students are different. Their goals are different. Their ages and stages are different. Right. So to say 20 minutes, 60 minutes.
John Kozicki (04:20.343)
Yeah.
Mandy York (04:25.033)
is just, it doesn’t make sense in all circumstances. right.
John Kozicki (04:28.821)
It doesn’t, yes, not one size fits all. You you articulated that much better than I was articulating it. It’s n it’s not one size fits fits all. so but that like that’s what you know it happens so frequently. And I think the two things that I want to focus on in this conversation, in in the reflection of those three episodes on practice, and obviously
If you’re jumping in and you’re hearing this for the first time, you might want to listen to those three episodes on practice because otherwise, I might ruffle some feathers with this, just out of context. because there is so much context, and that’s like why we spent three 30-minute episodes on this topic. but the two things that I want to focus on in this are how we manage our own.
Mandy York (05:02.307)
Go back. Yeah.
John Kozicki (05:25.727)
expectations as instructors and as studio owners and how I believe that leadership and mindset play a very big role in this. And I’ll I’ll kind of get into that. but I thought well let’s first start with managing our own expectations. Which we did mention a little bit in in one of those episodes on on practice. But
apparently it needs to be reiterated. so what some of these comments made me think about is something that I’ve experienced with. I mean, like I s I’ve done it with my I’ve done it myself you know, years ago as as like a less experienced instructor, but I’ve also heard it from some of the instructors at my own school where they’ll they’ll comment about.
particular students and they’re just not progressing. And that’s a problem. Like it’s viewed and presented as a problem. I think that and that’s a trap, I believe. and have a few things to consider. And maybe I’ll kind of give those considerations and if you have reactions, you know, so it doesn’t feel like I’m lecturing.
Mandy York (06:49.237)
Yes. Yep. I’m here. Got it.
John Kozicki (06:52.248)
So first thing to consider if if you you know you feel like your student’s not progressing or you hear from one of your instructors on staff, this student’s just not progressing, and there’s a point of frustration. consider that they may just be in a plateau. And a plateau, when you’re learning, it can be a few weeks, it can be a few months, you know, it can be
A long time. Yeah. And from the student’s perspective, that also can be frustrating. And part of this reframing of fr of practice with these episodes was understanding that our students do get frustrated and any sort of like fixation on like, hey, you’re not practicing enough or hey you need to.
Mandy York (07:22.573)
They happen. Yeah. Okay.
John Kozicki (07:51.79)
put in more more work, that may just be give them the the f the free pass to bail out on lessons.
Mandy York (07:59.556)
Yeah. Absolutely. You want to avoid that kind of friction. You don’t want to… Yeah.
John Kozicki (08:07.093)
Right. I mean I know geez, I had I had a period of time. So I don’t think I was taking lessons at the time. I think I was out of lessons. I was like maybe nineteen or twenty. I remember not picking up my guitar for about six to nine months at one point. Which seems in hindsight really, really crazy that there was a period of time that I wasn’t doing that. you know, I I’ll be honest, I don’t remember why.
Mandy York (08:29.144)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (08:35.401)
At this point, but I’m sure there was other stuff going on in my life.
all right. So consider their plateaus. Other thing to consider, this is a big one, and I think you might be able to frame this a little bit better, Mandy. Progress isn’t only technical. So students can develop musically in different ways, like their understanding of music and their their progress might not always just present itself as
Technical ability.
Mandy York (09:13.529)
I like this. Yeah, that makes sense to me. think, we, different skill sets develop at different paces. Sometimes, I don’t know. I’m just comparing this in, in my world here. Like we may have a student that’s motor skills are kind of really taking off, but not so much their verbal skills, right? It balances it balances out later, but that’s what this makes me think of, you know,
John Kozicki (09:37.237)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (09:43.34)
Yeah, or a student developing their ear. I mean, I think that’s really apparent with maybe say a voice student, but how is that going to present with an instrumentalist? You know, like you can’t crawl inside their head and and determine that, like, they’re hearing things differently. They’re hearing things at a higher level, you know? so I’m just suggesting that
Mandy York (09:48.439)
Yeah, for sure.
John Kozicki (10:12.193)
Like it might not always be that apparent. and because of that, like again, maybe don’t fixate on like they’re not prog progressing. okay, one more thing to consider.
student might not care. They just might not care about their technical progress.
Mandy York (10:38.219)
Yeah. How frustrating to the teacher, right? Yes. Yep.
John Kozicki (10:40.095)
And that sh right. Exactly. Yeah. Because as instructors, like, I mean, my gosh, my whole life I’ve cared about getting better at at this instrument and this thing that I love, you know, and you feel like that’s the thing that you are s imparting on your students, but man, they just might not care.
And here’s the thing, that shouldn’t be a reason to disqualify them from lessons.
Mandy York (11:15.083)
No, no, I love this point. This is totally valid. And I think the rub is like, we just can’t relate. We just can’t quite understand that. The student, right, personally as instructors. But this might be like the highlight of your student’s week coming in and playing with you, you know? So they’re where they should be and
John Kozicki (11:29.054)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (11:37.974)
Yes.
Mandy York (11:44.066)
Who knows what’s going to happen down the road, whatever. But if, if they’re loving it, if they’re being exposed to music every week and picking up their instrument, they, they’re where they need to be. And you can’t say something is wrong.
John Kozicki (11:59.072)
Yeah. I’m gonna need I like this phrase came to mind earlier today, and this isn’t in my notes, but it it I wanna I might have to drop this in a few times in this episode. Like consider as an instructor, do you want to be the reason that a student quits lessons or do you wanna be the reason that a student continues to show up?
John Kozicki (12:27.755)
Right, regardless of of like anything else. Like draw that line. Do I wanna do I wanna present myself in this lesson with this student in a way that makes them want to keep coming back? Or do I want to do things that it’s going to encourage them to leave?
Mandy York (12:48.291)
Right. Yes. Perfect point. Yeah. Yeah. I think about, have talked about this. I know this has come up. I couldn’t say what episode before, but I talk about it with my parents sometimes in classes. Like we all know someone who someone said something to them, right? The choir director said, you should just mouth the words to this song. We don’t want you to sing or
John Kozicki (12:49.709)
Big long pause there.
John Kozicki (13:12.13)
Yeah.
Mandy York (13:17.847)
the band teacher, you don’t have rhythm, you shouldn’t sign up next semester, or your brother that, you know, criticized your music making at home. Like, and music making is so personal, which is why it’s so special and important. But then you get criticized like that or, whatever it might be. And those kids stop. Those teenagers stop, right?
John Kozicki (13:27.86)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (13:42.197)
Yeah.
Mandy York (13:44.043)
And you know what? They come to my class 20 years later and they remember that experience. They can tell me, you know, what was said to them and when it was. So don’t be that person.
John Kozicki (13:51.295)
Hm. Yeah.
John Kozicki (13:56.469)
Or or here’s yeah, or here’s a real common one, and I th and and I’ll say I do get that this comes from a a good place a place of good intention. An instructor’s own perfectionism projected onto their students. Hyperfixating on on like proper technique and you know like
And I get where it comes from most of the time, where it comes from with instructors is these are the things that I did wrong when I was at this stage in my learning. And I really want to make sure that my students don’t do that. Right? The perfectionism, man, it’s like take it from a perfectionist. It rears its ugly head in horrible, horrible ways.
You know, so just don’t put that on your students. but I wanna like I you know, I don’t know if I’ve shared this story with you. I’m gonna share a story that really kind of put this into context for me about like, well, some students just don’t care. So man, this goes back eight, maybe nine years ago. This is while ago. very early days of of my current studio, and I had
Donated a month-long lesson package for a silent auction. And the person who won was this older guy, Jim. He was retired. Really interesting guy. Never played guitar in his life, right? His dad played guitar. His dad had a guitar. He now owned the guitar. Big fan of music, but didn’t know how to play the guitar. And
So he came to the lessons. He lived about 40 minutes away. He lived many towns over. and came to the lessons, did the month, and after the month, I recommended some other places closer to him that he if he wanted to continue. Like I even had like a friend of mine who lived closer to him, and I suggested just suggested my friend. And he wanted to stick with me.
John Kozicki (16:21.056)
So every week he would drive 40 minutes one way, take a 30-minute guitar lesson with me, and then drive 40 minutes back. Right? So yeah, like pretty big portion of a day, right? And granted he was retired, but this went on for five years. And yeah, for five years, and let me tell you, he didn’t get much better.
Mandy York (16:47.469)
Wow.
John Kozicki (16:51.21)
at playing the guitar in those five years. And, you know, I I would, you know, I would go through the motions and and like teach him concepts and teach him the same thing over and over again and you know like remind him on like yeah this is how we do this and and I can see how like if if an instructor gets bored with that
I can see how that’s frustrating, you know. But that it’s not like he was there for whatever reason he was there. He loved music, right? He enjoyed feeling more connected to the music. He just didn’t care that he wasn’t improving technically, right? So I just went with it. And then at one point, so he was a he was a Vietnam vet also.
So he had regular visits to the the VA for for cancer screenings. And he had a scare one time and they had to do a bunch of tests and and he he was worried. Turned out the screening came back clear. And I remember I got a voicemail on my on my cell phone one day, and he was super excited to tell me that the
screening was clear. And and he had relayed to me later that in talking with his doctor, that his doctor, you know, he had shared the guitar lesson stories and he he said the doctor referred to it as his therapy. And so from that point on, he referred to guitar lessons as therapy for him.
Mandy York (18:41.015)
That’s awesome. Yeah. Right.
John Kozicki (18:41.42)
He just didn’t he didn’t care, you know? He didn’t care that he wasn’t getting better at guitar. He was there for something else. And
Mandy York (18:49.078)
Yes.
John Kozicki (18:51.715)
Go ahead.
Mandy York (18:52.641)
He cared. He just had a different goal. The goal was different in this case. Yes. And like you mentioned, I can see how that can be frustrating or a struggle for instructors. But we serve all kinds of people, right? And I think that that is challenging to be able to have a student like Jim where
John Kozicki (18:56.152)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mandy York (19:20.641)
The goal is a lot different than someone that is, you know, that is putting in like daily practice and trying to get technically better and has some like specific performance goals in mind. Right. That’s that can be, you know, a big, a wide range and shift in your teaching schedule. But to me, both students are equally, you know, important and their reasons are equally valid.
John Kozicki (19:34.125)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (19:50.071)
Yeah, we say this to the students in the band program all the time at the rock school. You’re not always going to love the songs that you’re playing in band. But try and find something that you like about the song so that you know you so that you dedicate yourself to it. I’d say this, that’s the same same advice here, right? Like maybe you don’t love working with a student because they’re not progressing and you want to see progress.
technically, find something else. Find something else in that lesson. You know, try and understand what is important to that student and try and connect on that, I’d say.
Mandy York (20:30.583)
Yeah. Yep. I really liked that. think in looking at the whole person, right? Your student as a whole person and what their, their goals are. Yeah. That’s so cool.
John Kozicki (20:43.692)
Right. And so that’s that’s kind of like my advice and and considerations in managing our own expectations that we may put on our students. and some of that is related to our own mindset, which sort of also trails into this idea of leadership that I want to focus on. And I ultimately will bring this all back around to practice, I promise.
Because now we’re getting into some like really heavy topics. but I think if you run your own studio, whether you are a solo instructor or you have employees and you have other instructors who work for you or whatever, whether you like it or not, you are a leader and people trust you and they look to you.
for your advice and they they notice how you show up.
Mandy York (21:53.185)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (21:53.231)
Thoughts. So Yeah, that so I guess and I’ll get to like
Mandy York (21:56.867)
you
John Kozicki (22:05.976)
I’ll get to how I think I changed my mindset on this, but here’s the thing. If you’re if you’re an instructor and relate it we’ll relate it back to to practice, do you wanna be the instructor who just kind of follows the status quo? And all right, we finished the lesson and go practice for twenty minutes every day. Come back next week, we’ll do it again, and I’ll give you twenty more minutes of practice.
You know, do you want to follow that status quo? Which
Mandy York (22:35.309)
Yes.
John Kozicki (22:40.044)
This is what I’ve been railing against with all of this, you know, this this practice series. Or do you want to be the kind of teacher that leads your community in a way that
John Kozicki (22:57.464)
talks about the benefits of music regardless of again technical skill or progress or time spent practicing. Like you can do both still too. You can still like you can choose from number two and still do number one when it’s needed. But what you can’t do is just be number one, you know, and and expect like different results.
Mandy York (23:21.951)
Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. I mean, that’s what I was thinking. You can, you can follow that status quo and, and give the line every week about 20 minutes. That’s certainly not going to guarantee that your, your students are going to be progressing, you know, just because you say it doesn’t mean they’re going to do it. And so where’s the inspiration and where’s the connection.
John Kozicki (23:38.358)
No. And
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (23:45.357)
Yeah, yeah. so yeah, and I think again, we talked about that a little bit in the in the three part series of practice. but again, like y whether you like it or not, you are a leader in your studio. You’re a leader to your students and to the families, if you have employees, you’re you’re a leader to them. And you get to make the choice if you’re showing up as
A strong leader or you’re simply the one who has the keys to the studio?
John Kozicki (24:25.503)
And again, you can be just the person who has the keys to the studio, but that’s a conscious choice, I think. You know, do you do you want to be a leader or do you want to just, you know, be the one who opens and closes the door and you know goes through the motions? that’s and I think that’s where the like the mindset shift comes in.
John Kozicki (25:32.707)
Yeah, I mean, I don’t know. Do you feel do you feel like you’re I don’t know, I know I go through days where I’m just like I feel like I’m holding the keys, right? But again, I think it’s a conscious effort. What do you like how do you feel about it? It’s hard work.
Mandy York (25:50.22)
It is hard work and yep, I agree with you that it’s a conscious effort, but I, I think it’s so much, more meaningful and fulfilling. Like when I feel like I’m being a stronger leader, like that sense of being on a team is like being on a team and, you know, going into.
into the studio and working with our students, like on a united front, it feels better. You know, it feels like we’re doing, we’re doing better work, making more of a difference, I guess, if you want to say it that way.
John Kozicki (26:22.852)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (26:29.881)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (26:33.965)
Yeah. my realization, I might have told this story on an earlier episode. I don’t remember, but my my realization when I kinda had that mindset shift about leadership was like I think it was maybe two days into COVID. And I just I clear as day I remember, I was like
I’m in my office right now. I was like standing two feet away. And I was talking to my wife and I said, I’m not sure I’m gonna have a job after this. And it was this yeah, yeah. I mean, I’m sure we all had those those realizations during COVID, but like for me, what happened next was I I was contemplating I was contemplating what was everything that was at stake. And
Mandy York (27:14.101)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (27:27.723)
Obviously, my own income and livelihood was at stake. the income of all of my instructors, the students in my studio, and you know, like contemplating even talking about practice. Would they practice, right? Would they progress during this crazy time, you know, and
like even what was more important at that point, you know, was it that they’re practicing and playing, or was it their own mental health and maybe a sense of community, right? Obviously that that’s kind of like an afterthought because we we realize now in hindsight what what that did to all of us and and the kids. And I was contemplating the the parents who put their trust in my instructors, in the studio, and me.
Mandy York (28:09.954)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (28:27.466)
And it’s hundreds of people that I was thinking about, like hundreds of people that my decisions in that moment were going to impact. And it wasn’t like you know, it wasn’t like I could log on to some website and find out like, well, what are the rules for music schools? You know, like like they were doing for churches. Yeah.
Mandy York (28:33.186)
Yeah.
Mandy York (28:51.565)
my gosh, yeah. We were all figuring it out as we went along at that time.
John Kozicki (28:57.258)
Or salons where it’s like, okay, here’s what you gotta do, six feet, blah, blah, blah. no one was saying that about music schools, right? So that was kind of my my my realization moment where I said, Okay, I if I’m going to do what is right for this community of hundreds of people, then I have to like I can’t just be the guy with the keys anymore. I have to be the leader, right?
And I have to realize that all these people are watching me for what we’re gonna do. And to bring it back around to the idea of practice, you know, again, you can follow the status quo. And you can just say, like, 20 minutes practice and and give those sort of regular instructor talking points, like, well, it’s not just what you practice, it’s how you practice.
You know, and all that stuff. And that’s all fine, right? Again, like that stuff’s not going away. We can always use that. But those are like just kind of default settings. And I think if you want to actually make a real impact, if you want to do something that’s more than just average, you have to make decisions that are more than just average.
Like those again, practice is just kind of a a metaphor for what we’re doing in our studios. And
I think if you can wrap your brain around that metaphor as like, okay, how do I think about practice? Am I just going with what I’m taught? Or am I really thinking about what is the right decision in the moment for my students at any given point, which can change, right? Then you’re making those decisions mindfully and with purpose. And if you can do that with practice.
Mandy York (30:59.522)
Yes.
John Kozicki (31:09.122)
then you can do that with your entire studio and, you know, how you want to show up.
Mandy York (31:17.699)
Nice. Yes, I think you know, seriously, that’s it. That’s bringing this all like wrapping all of this series together. There is not a one size fits all for our students. I love how you just said like, they, you know, you have to be flexible and dynamic, right? From one week to the next to the next.
John Kozicki (31:20.965)
Ha ha ha
Mandy York (31:46.808)
you know, month, like the, the prescription, the, the practice advice is not always the same, right? This is, yeah, this makes sense. go ahead.
John Kozicki (32:05.638)
I yeah, I I don’t know. I just I f again I feel like I’ve just been kind of lecturing, but it’s you know, if you want average results, then you give the average answers. But if you wanna do something that’s above average, then you can’t, you know, expect above average results if you’re giving average average advice.
Mandy York (32:30.531)
Yeah, you’re right.
John Kozicki (32:33.816)
So
Mandy York (32:34.029)
think the trick here too is that it really is different for every student and every the situation. I think when people push back on the concepts that you’re putting out saying, well, you have to have this much practice time, you know, to progress and it depends, you know, it matters what you’re practicing. It’s like, yeah, but
only if those are your goals and only if this is the kind of student you have. right. I think the flexibility is is what what we’re talking about here.
John Kozicki (33:10.242)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (33:17.1)
Yeah, and I’ve got all sorts of thoughts on maybe why instructors do this. And I’m not gonna get into those because then I’m really gonna ruffle some feathers. but you know, again, it like
Mandy York (33:24.936)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (33:31.406)
If you wanna be average, cool. If you want to do something that’s above average, then you have to figure out like how to make decisions that are above average. And you know, let me have it in the comments. Hate on me all you want, send some some emails, whatever. yeah, I can take it.
Mandy York (33:54.561)
Yeah. Well, I think this is, it’s good that you get pushed back. It’s more to talk about and consider and, and, and realize there’s both sides of this argument have a lot of really great points. And I don’t think anyone is knocking, you know, technical practice for specific students, but you know, but you, you just can’t do that for every single student. And there are students that are
John Kozicki (34:15.116)
Nope, not once did we say that.
Mandy York (34:23.585)
just as valuable that aren’t going to need the same kind of technical practice as others.
John Kozicki (34:29.58)
Right. Yeah. And if those are the harder students to to work with because they’re not responding to your prescription, then maybe, you know, it’s time to up your game.
Mandy York (34:44.129)
Yeah, dig deeper.
John Kozicki (34:46.028)
Yeah. Yeah. All right. That’s how I’m gonna end this one. I’m calling out those instructors. so we’ll wrap it up and I’ll expect some angry emails and we’ll see you next time.
Mandy York (34:49.187)
Cool.
Mandy York (35:00.344)
Sounds good, thanks Sean.
John Kozicki (35:01.997)
Bye.
