In this episode John Kozicki (Michigan Rock School and RockSchoolProprietor.com) and Mandy York (Music Time of Milford) discuss how hustle culture and social media pressure push music studio owners to equate busyness with success, often leading to burnout. They explore why student numbers aren’t the only growth metric and why adding programs should match your mission and life priorities.
In this episode:
- The evolution of hustle culture over the past decade and how social media has created added pressures around work and productivity.
- How to define what success means to you personally and professionally, and the common misbelief of equating busyness with achievement.
- Strategies for measuring progress beyond numbers in you music lesson studio, the importance of setting long-term goals that strike a balance between studio growth and personal well-being.
- Tips to avoid the trap of constant hustle and burnout while creating meaningful and aligned programming for growth in you teaching business.
The episode offers simple antidotes: define what success means for you, set measurable long-term goals, protect personal well‑being, and choose growth that aligns with your values so your business supports your life instead of consuming it.
Rock School Proprietor is a podcast for independent music school owners and lesson studio operators looking to attract more students and create a sustainable business. New episodes drop Wednesdays at RockSchoolProprietor.com and on all podcast streaming platforms.
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Episode Transcript:
(Please note: This transcript was generated by robots. There may be errors. For the best experience, please listen to the podcast episode.)
John Kozicki (00:00.862)
Welcome to Rock School Proprietor Podcast. My name’s John Kazicki.
Mandy (00:04.939)
And I’m Mandy York.
John Kozicki (00:07.178)
And Mandy, you pitched me this idea last week about talking about hustle culture and what that looks like for people like us who are music instructors and studio owners. Kind of a hot topic lately.
Mandy (00:28.683)
Yeah, yeah. Kind of a buzzword that you read about, you see, hear about all all the time. and has just come up in a lot of conversations that I’ve had lately. So I wanted to kind of explore it with you. And
John Kozicki (00:42.272)
And it used I think it used to be, it used to, I don’t know trying to put a timeline on this. May I dunno, let’s say ten years ago, hustle culture was sort of viewed as a positive, I think.
Now not so much.
Mandy (01:02.787)
Right. And I think that’s what’s interesting to talk about here and how that the ideas about this are shifting. Yeah. Yeah.
John Kozicki (01:11.04)
Yeah. Yeah. So what I gotta know, like what what brought this about?
Mandy (01:17.833)
really like a couple things I think. conversations that I’ve had with friends and and other business owners actually. Not in not in the same field, not music business owners, but other business small business owners. and kind of like like having to examine this myself and work through this eternally internally,
John Kozicki (01:30.221)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (01:47.809)
Because I feel I’m I feel a lot of pressure from the things that I see, the things that I read. Like, am I enough? Am I doing enough? Am I hustling hard enough? So kind of through these conversations with friends and you know analyzing this on my own, coming to coming to some, you know, ideas on how to how to work through it. Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (01:58.84)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (02:14.623)
Yeah.
I man, I hate to bring this back around to social media because I feel like so many of our topics as of late come back to social media. However, it doesn’t help that there’s this it’s like this weird treadmill that businesses sort of need to be on social media to have awareness.
and find the clients and you know the clients find them or us but part of that existence on social media requires more content keep putting more things out there keep doing more and it’s not like we are it’s not like we’re getting paid to do more right it’s just the bar keeps inching higher and higher and higher
Mandy (03:02.996)
Yes.
Mandy (03:10.475)
Right.
John Kozicki (03:16.094)
And the the only I mean, like what is our recourse? Disengage from it?
Mandy (03:25.386)
Right. Yes. You it it feels like a trap. It’s a grind having to produce that content and keep putting it out. And I think a lot of us question what the return on that investment is too, right? But we have to do it. We have to do it. Well, I mean, how would you just to start off real simply, how would you define hustle culture? ‘Cause we’ve talked about like maybe that did have more of a positive connotation at one time, but right now when I say like what is hustle cultural culture?
John Kozicki (03:28.811)
Yeah. Yeah.
John Kozicki (03:37.473)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (03:55.308)
Hustle culture. What does that mean to you?
John Kozicki (03:57.496)
Yeah.
Hard to say. I mean, because I feel like maybe my perceived definition of hostile culture is grounded in that that era of like 10 years ago. But generally speaking, it’s about this constant output almost as part of your identity. It makes me think about people like Gary Vee. I don’t know if you ever listened to his podcast.
Mandy (04:31.503)
Mm mm.
John Kozicki (04:32.319)
I’m I’m not a fan and in part because what I felt I was hearing from Gary V was a lot of this, you know, go go go. and if you’re not always on, then you’re failing.
Mandy (04:49.12)
Yeah. Y assigning self worth to like this this busyness and this hustle. Yeah.
John Kozicki (04:53.159)
Yes, yes. Busyness, busyness mistaken for your worth. And where that where that leads my thought process is I think about I mean on unlike well we were kind of just talking about this. I’m our st my studio’s closed this week and I’m getting a lot done.
Things that I’ve wanted to really do that I feel are going to move the needle. That’s a phrase that I’m I I ask myself a lot. Like, am I, is the work I’m doing moving the needle? Or is it just work that I have to do that has to get done? Because there are plenty of tasks that I have to do that just need to get done. And there are even more tasks that I could assign myself that are more or less like busy work. None of which
necessarily move the needle and make things better for my my business or my life or whatever, but it’s just like they have to get done. You know, like once a week I’ve got to mow the lawn at my house. Right? It takes a significant amount of time. It’s you know, it’s not really doing anything for me. It’s just like it’s maintenance. I have to do it. So yeah
Mandy (06:04.002)
Yes. Yeah. Yep.
Mandy (06:15.882)
Mm-hmm. Yep. Just like in business, yeah. Yeah.
John Kozicki (06:20.843)
I kind of deviated, but it’s there’s this s self inflicted trap where like is busyness actually going to lead to anything positive, or is it just keeping you busy for the front of looking busy, looking like you’re hustling?
Mandy (06:35.67)
Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think that like the hustle culture is the belief that the the more you work, the more you p succeed, right? And there’s kind of these external pressures that I think of when I think of this hustle culture is that you need to grow and scale and all these buzzwords, right? The you’ve gotta be generating passive income, diversify your income sources, all that kind of stuff. And
So success to me in this this idea in this culture seems very exhausting. And what we wanna do is work harder or we wanna work smarter, right? Not harder. And this, you know, getting swept away in this kind of hustle culture can seems to me can lead to burnout, right? Which is something we’ve talked about in the past that we’re trying to avoid. So
John Kozicki (07:11.071)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (07:18.814)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
John Kozicki (07:30.583)
Yeah.
Mandy (07:34.762)
I’ve been thinking about where where does ambition and contentment meet? Like is there a space, is there a sweet spot where your hustle gets you to a place where
I don’t want to say that you’ve arrived, but that that you can feel successful and content.
John Kozicki (07:58.669)
Good question. I’m gonna do a little self analysis here on that. And where one area that I feel like I have failed and I probably could do a lot better, and and maybe this if I did this, it would be able I I’d be able to measure a little bit better. I generally I’m not the best at writing down my goals, like long term goals.
I’ll write down short-term goals and come up with plans, but long-term goals. I I don’t I don’t have a goal for three years from now, five years from now, 10 years from now. If I were better about doing that, and had I been better about doing that in say the last 10 years or 15 years since I started like being my own boss, then maybe I’d be able to measure backwards.
Did I hit this goal and feel content with hitting that goal? All the while knowing that I can make new goals, I can create new goals, and I can have different points to measure whether or not I feel like I’m successful. But I think the ability to measure backwards might be a benefit there.
Mandy (09:19.116)
Yes. No, I like I like having like measurable outcomes. That’s a that’s really good to remind us of.
John Kozicki (09:27.117)
‘Cause otherwise aren’t we just comparing to random stuff that we feel inferior to? Right.
Mandy (09:33.183)
Yes, yes. And this yeah, exactly. Exactly. And like I don’t know if I’ve said this yet, but like hard work is important. We work really hard. Okay. This isn’t about like trying to take the easy way or we we work really hard, particularly in the beginning, and we are we’re entrepreneurs. We’re creative entrepreneurs. We’re musicians, right? My brain is constantly like
John Kozicki (09:45.397)
Yeah, yeah.
John Kozicki (09:58.861)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (10:02.262)
Brainstorming, planning, like trying to come up with creative ideas. But I think like the smarter part is deciding like how and when to use those ideas. Right? I think I’m jumping a a little bit ahead. Like, so there’s a pressure to grow, right? I think they’re I feel anyway, external pressures to grow. Social media.
John Kozicki (10:19.028)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (10:30.196)
social media comparing to those around you, right? there’s, you know, there’s all and people are selling you stuff all the time as business owners, coaches, other consultants, right? Like you need to do this.
John Kozicki (10:42.496)
Yeah. Play again, playing on that feeling of being feeling inferior to whatever you view yourself as inferior to.
Mandy (10:51.23)
Yes. You know, sign up and I will tell you how to achieve X, Y, Z in this 50 minute webinar, right? So we we’re being sold this idea to all the time, in addition to, you know, comparing ourselves to others. But I think when you’re able to decide, well, but when do I grow? Like
John Kozicki (11:01.13)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Mandy (11:17.398)
being smarter about who you are and what’s important to you. Like how do you know when it’s time to grow? Yeah, go ahead.
John Kozicki (11:23.86)
Yeah. Can we talk a little bit about the word grow in in growth?
Mandy (11:28.584)
Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (11:32.202)
That is really ambiguous, in my opinion.
In our world, in the music lesson world, I I think our default setting when we think about growth is student number.
John Kozicki (11:52.459)
Which may be a valid growth metric. It may be a valid met metric to use to determine growth. But
How do we determine what is correct for each individual student studio, each individual instructor? What does growth look like? You know, quote unquote growth. I mean it’s been a long time since we’ve compared student numbers, but I would guarantee if we did, they would mean completely different things because you have a studio where you’re doing all group classes.
Two instructors at this point, right? I have a studio where I do a good portion of group classes, but also a lot of private lessons. And I have 12 instructors. Student numbers for me and student numbers for you are completely different because they re result in different profit margins and different amounts of time that our studios are open, and all of those things.
Mandy (12:37.228)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (13:03.082)
are factors in this more complex equation. And that’s just you and me, right? And but we commonly will compare ourselves to whatever studio we see online and wonder how many students they have. And and then, you know, do we measure up? Are we are we like are we superior just because of that random stude student number? And it doesn’t necessarily mean anything. So I think
Mandy (13:07.33)
Absolutely. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
John Kozicki (13:31.552)
Being hyperfixated on growth isn’t always the full picture. So I I think sorry, I just got on a little soapbox here.
Mandy (13:42.226)
No, that’s exactly where we need to go with this. That is the idea. Yeah.
John Kozicki (13:46.198)
But student numbers not I think the only thing to think about because that can get us back to that idea of that that treadmill. You know, that like, I don’t have enough students because of this other student studio has more than I do. And why don’t I have more students? it just might not be the right metric. So I think defining what growth looks like
might be an antidote for this idea of hustle culture, possibly. I don’t know.
Mandy (14:22.39)
Yeah, I think it is it’s really personal. Like yeah, adding more students to my studio has a lot different like bottom line than adding more students to your studio, right? Like it’s it doesn’t make sense. But if you want to grow
John Kozicki (14:38.633)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mandy (14:46.414)
grow your programming. Can we right? So I want to grow my programming. Why, right? Like asking yourself questions about this. Why? Is it because your current programming isn’t filling? Or do you have, do you have students? Do you like have you been in business and you have students aging out of a current level? And you need to s and you see an opportunity to provide like programming for this specific age level.
John Kozicki (14:51.243)
Sure. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Mandy (15:16.043)
Right.
John Kozicki (15:17.033)
Yeah, so you’re saying if you’ve identified a gap in what you offer and you feel that that is a worthy gap to fill, then maybe adding programs is the way to go.
Mandy (15:21.004)
Yes. Mm-hmm.
Mandy (15:33.783)
Make sense for you, right? Because I mean, in my opinion, and like I can see that adding value to my studio, right? That’s gonna add value, that’s gonna add quality to what I’m offering. I’m going to be able to reach more kids. the students are already there, right? If I’m if I’m worried about my numbers and I wanna add more programming because my current programming is not filling, you need to have some different
Different conversations and brainstorming about that, right? This isn’t like throwing noodles at the wall to see what sticks, right? Which is what I sometimes feel about the growth that I see is like where where are you and who are you? I see you just like adding things, but instead of honing in and like doing what you do like really, really well. Does that make sense?
John Kozicki (16:11.411)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (16:30.783)
Okay, can we do I think so, I think so. I wanna put an example out there. Let’s say you and I are talking and you’re you’re telling me, you know, I just I feel like I need to I feel like I need to expand my programs, maybe get more students, more offerings. And I say to you, now this would never happen, but I say to you, you know, Mandy.
Mandy (16:35.959)
Yeah.
Mandy (16:56.299)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (16:59.317)
The market segment that you’re really missing out on is adults. Why don’t you offer, why don’t you offer a music time adults only program that’s for adults to come in in the evenings, say, you know, 7:30 to 815.
And all the adults can sing karaoke and you’ll teach them the finer points of karaoke, right? It would be great. People would buy that, you know? And then like your response would be, what?
Mandy (17:33.332)
Yeah. Yep. Maybe a little group keyboard. Yeah. Yes.
Mandy (17:44.833)
In this scenario or in real life. In real life no. No, that is not what we do. That’s not no. Am I like it how am I gonna feel about that? Is that gonna like raise the quality of my studio? And is that like programming that I am personally excited about? Like, no, no, that’s not what we need to be doing.
John Kozicki (17:46.965)
Just let me just let me ha just let me have it. I know you’re gonna be like, right.
John Kozicki (18:08.053)
Right.
And it’s not serving your mission. You know, it’s not serving like your purpose and what you’re about. Yes, maybe it would generate more income. Yes, maybe it would get more students in the door. But are you happy about it?
Mandy (18:13.47)
Exactly. Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (18:28.118)
Are you happy about it? And then like after answering those questions, like, so is there like potential for longevity in this program really? If we’re not if it doesn’t fit the mission, like it’s probably gonna fizzle. Yeah. And then even just getting into like the logistics of of starting programs like this. If I’m doing these adult classes on Tuesday nights, I then my real audience is not
John Kozicki (18:39.499)
Right. Yeah.
Mandy (18:58.508)
Like I can’t be teaching them on Tuesday nights, right? If those if that program continues to grow or whatever, like thinking about your spaces in that way too. Like if you come across a really great flute instructor that wants to start teaching flute out of your studio, your rock school, jazz flute, like what does that mean? Okay, don’t she’s her you know, she’s
John Kozicki (19:01.247)
Right. Yeah.
John Kozicki (19:08.949)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (19:14.879)
Jazz. Are we talking jazz flute? Are we talking?
Mandy (19:26.398)
super accomplished and she can already come in with four students and whatever. Okay, so she looks sparkly and exciting. But but she’s gonna take away a room. She’s going to be using a room. And what does that mean for everybody else, you know, your other primary business? So that’s very specific and nitty-gritty, but I think like those are the things you have to think out with think about when you can kind of fall trapped to this
John Kozicki (19:31.499)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (19:39.049)
Yes.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mandy (19:56.141)
hustle culture of what else can I do, what can I add and yeah.
John Kozicki (20:00.157)
Right. And and let’s talk about we’ll go back to the wild scenario I placed in your lap. w let’s say you you did that. What are you what are you not doing on Tuesday nights because you’re now teaching adult karaoke at your studio? Right? You’re not spending time with your family.
You know, you can’t put a dollar amount on that, but you have to somehow figure out how important is that to my existence, right? Like we have this we have this weird thing as small business owners where we feel tremendous pressure because we don’t just go to work and do the job and come home. We don’t answer to
a boss who tells us these are the things that you need to do to be successful at your job. There’s freedom in that, but there’s also traps associated with that because we don’t have anyone telling us to do to be successful at our jobs. So our imaginations can run wild and feel like anything and everything is what we should be doing.
Mandy (21:09.1)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (21:18.24)
Yes. Yep. And we’ve talked about that like specifically in when you first start a business and like in our burnout episode too. That that pressure to always be available, be everything to everyone all the time. Yeah. I think battling burnout
John Kozicki (21:29.567)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (21:38.367)
Yeah, Battling Burnout was that was episode eleven. Whew. Yeah, a long time ago. Long time ago. So go back and listen to Battling Burnout, episode eleven.
Mandy (21:42.698)
Eleven. That was a long time ago. It doesn’t feel that long ago.
Mandy (21:51.149)
Yes. I think these things are these ideas are tied together. Yeah, battling burnout, finding the balance. And yes, to your point, success looks different to everybody, you know? I you know, it can look like it can look like revenue, the product product quality, right? The communities that we create. balance. That’s a big one. Balance.
John Kozicki (21:54.47)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (22:10.505)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (22:21.07)
and fulfillment in in just enjoying what you do, right? Yeah.
John Kozicki (22:29.91)
I am I I’ve I told you this, but tomorrow I’m going on a school band field trip with my son. Be gone all day. Like we’re leaving early, seven AM. We’re not getting home until eleven. So I’m chaperoning with some of the other parents. And that’s a win for me, I think.
Mandy (22:55.842)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (22:57.694)
You know, that that that freedom that we have as as business owners, like I it’s it’s taken me a long time to remember that I need to take advantage of some of these freedoms that I have because of who who I answer to and because I’m I run my own business.
Mandy (23:18.572)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (23:26.952)
I don’t want to feel guilty tomorrow because I’m not working on this list of ten tasks that I know I need to do.
Mandy (23:37.475)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. And I think I I’ve thought while preparing this too, like how our ideas of success have changed over the course of you know, since opening our businesses. you said it’s taken you some time to like to to remember that this is what you should be prioritizing, right? Yeah. I I remember feeling that way in the beginning, is that
John Kozicki (23:52.778)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (24:07.51)
that hustle, that really hardcore hustle of like, I I can’t be there for everything because I have to I have to be t putting all my time and attention into the studio and what I’m building. and then you kind of realize, well, wait a second, I need to be working smarter and I am in charge and I can create my schedule so that I can be here for these things. And yeah, it’s a big part of what we’re talking about.
John Kozicki (24:34.974)
The yeah, the more that we talk about this, man, the more I regret not writing down what I feel like success would look like for me in a year or in two years or in five years. Because I’ve gotta imagine if I got in that time machine and and went back twelve years before I started this studio.
And did that, like what would success look like?
I I mean, I feel like maybe I would l like my past self would look at my future self and say, like, wow, you did it. Maybe. and I remember even years and years ago before I even started a studio and just had that inkling of an idea.
Mandy (25:19.338)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (25:32.302)
And I’ve got this very fuzzy memory of trying to explain my vision to a friend of mine.
And they weren’t quite getting it. But I feel like in my mind I had a really clear vision. Now this is what it’s gonna be, right? This is it’s gonna be interactive, it’s gonna be groups and they’re gonna be performing and and so I try and remember that version of me. And I feel like, yeah, you kind of did that. You know, you hit your goals. So maybe my mid-year resolution, is that a thing? Is
Mandy (26:08.758)
Yeah. It can be.
John Kozicki (26:09.692)
is to start writing down these goals so so I am better able to measure backwards.
Mandy (26:16.214)
Yep, I like that. I feel like I’m in a a a building phase right now, too. yeah. And I f I am summer’s a little lighter right now, but particularly the last two semesters, winter and spring, I worked I worked more. there was more of a grind, but we’re hiring and I do have this plan for
John Kozicki (26:22.478)
Mm, me too.
Mandy (26:45.974)
like winter of next year. You know, it’s it’s not you know, it’s not a three or five year plan, but I I do have an idea of where I’m going and what it’s going to allow me to do personally, but also for for the business when I have more more staff on hand and and how much farther we can go with a a better team. So yeah, that’s good advice.
John Kozicki (26:48.617)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (27:14.474)
So what’s the antidote? What do you think? I mean, if if we’re in agreement, which I’m sure we are, that hustle culture is is a it’s a fad that has run its course, then what is the antidote to not get caught up in it?
Mandy (27:36.458)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (27:37.502)
I mean clearly it’s complicated. Maybe not one maybe not one piece to it.
Mandy (27:42.263)
Right. And and again, I really do think everybody’s different. Like, I think you need to define what success is for you. And maybe that’s like your suggestion of writing down these longer term goals. always a good idea. But be specific. Like it’s I mean, we can measure success like objectively, right? We c I mean, there to a certain extent. And
John Kozicki (27:48.906)
Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (28:06.27)
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (28:11.148)
For me to be successful, I I do need a certain level of income. but I need I need flexibility and balance so that I can do certain things with my family and spend time with my family and be here for them. and it also means like the quality of programming and community, community that I I offer and deliver.
Be specific. What is it, what does it mean for you to find that success? And then figure out what where to hustle and figure out where you don’t need to be hustling as much, right?
John Kozicki (28:47.89)
Yeah.
John Kozicki (28:52.987)
Okay. I’m I’m frantically writing down my my closing points here. so my closing points to help mentally resist the idea of of the the messaging that we’re getting from hustle culture. Like you gotta be hustling, you gotta be busy. as you said, write down what success looks like for you and define what that looks like.
Because then you can measure backwards. Don’t underestimate personal contentment, knowing what enough looks like for you personally. And last, what do you personally want to do? What do you want to work on? What do you not want to work on? I think that’s that’s the the big picture because otherwise, again, we’re just we’re dealt this.
ambiguous, nebulous concept of if you’re not busy, you’re failing, or if you’re not defining those things, you’re comparing yourselves yourself to whatever random person and guaranteed you’re gonna compare yourself to someone who’s doing more than you in any one a area.
Mandy (30:12.446)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s an interesting thing too, right? Like you can’t compare yoursome yourself to someone. You don’t know what they’re what they’re doing to get to where they are, right? Yes. You yeah. Yes. That’s in general when you are exposed to social media. Think about those things. You don’t know what’s going on behind the behind the scenes. Sure.
John Kozicki (30:23.355)
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
John Kozicki (30:34.337)
yeah. Exactly, exactly. All right. Any other closing thoughts or we’re gonna bring this home?
Mandy (30:41.982)
No, I I think this was great. I it’s it’s good to every once in a while, some of these episodes that we do just kind of introspective and, you know, take a minute to jot down some of your ideas. we’re recording this in the summertime. I think it’s a good time to be doing this kind of stuff. As I kind of think of the fall as the beginning of a a new year for for my center anyway. Yeah.
John Kozicki (31:08.923)
Yeah. I’m I’m also gonna give a little pep talk because I think if anyone who’s listening to listening to this, they’re probably concerned with these types of things. They’re they probably they’re seeking out knowledge, they’re seeking out ways that they can grow personally. my pep talk is for the listeners, that means you’re already doing really well. So give yourself a pat on the back for that and give yourself a little bit of grace.
Mandy (31:39.138)
For sure. Yes. Thanks, John. Mm-hmm.
John Kozicki (31:41.033)
Alright, all right, with that, we’re gonna wrap it up and we’ll see you next time.
Mandy (31:46.659)
Sounds good. See ya. Bye.
John Kozicki (31:48.586)
Bye.
